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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Looking forward to reading the opinions of the Supremes. From a glance it looks like they honored states rights. And people in that state no longer need to look at race as criteria. Good. We no longer live in the sixties. It's about time future students are chosen on their merits not the color of their skin.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Which you will have no quantifiable way of knowing.
    That is what discovery is all about. The schools, who will be choosing students on merit should be able to produce records of their scoring system for admissions.

    No, it was a ruling to end one form of a quantifiable type of discrimination. The ruling doesn't possess the means to end discrimination.
    I used "institutionalized" as a qualifier for a reason. The discrimination you are talking about was always illegal, the discrimination the SCOTUS ended used to be legal.

    If the school picks a qualified white candidate over an equally qualified black candidate for racist reasons, there will be no way to prove it.
    Why not? And, anyway, until this ruling they would have discriminated against the white student in your scenario legally. It is a poor argument to say that ending LEGAL discrimination is bad because ILLEGAL discrimination is hard to prove.

    One type of institutionalized discrimination, nothing more.
    Well sure. Picking this kid over pretty much all other kids is discrimination, but it is MERIT based discrimination and he earned his admissions because he is awesome. Merit based discrimination is something anyone can earn so it is not unequal in its application.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Everyone should have equal opportunity. Even with this court ruling, everyone still does.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Students of all races can now know that they got in to Michigan schools on their merit.
    That is, unless their family has given the school a lot of money. Or unless they go to the same country club as some of the admissions department staff. Or unless their parents paid to send them to a leadership summit every summer knowing it would make their college resume look good. Then they'd know they into that particular Michigan school because they have a privileged background. Which has always been the way a whole lot of people got into college.

    I think affirmative action is a good idea, but it should be way more about family background and economics than race. That's the way the world works. You do better when you're rich. There is statistical proof of this being true. The least we can do in the land of opportunity is give people with impoverished backgrounds a fair shot against their fellow applicants who were expected to get into an ivy league school since they were born. All that said, I think Michigan is being very stupid, but I agree with the court's decision. They can be as stupid as they want to be. This is the state with a whole peninsula of people eating squirrel pie. What a shock that Harvard and Yale aren't there.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    The only principle that I apply to colleges is they should admit who they want, without the government telling them who they should admit. It's the same principle I apply to business. Neither one of us is wrong - we just have different principles.
    So to clarify - if the U of Michigan wants to admit minorities with decidedly lower HS GPA's and SAT's than other admittees - you support that idea since it is their choice?
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    So to clarify - if the U of Michigan wants to admit minorities with decidedly lower HS GPA's and SAT's than other admittees - you support that idea since it is their choice?
    If they were admitting them to beef up their football prospects? Absolutely. If they were admitting them because they want to lower the average GPAs and SAT scores of the incoming class? Absolutely. It would be their choice - not mine.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Everyone should have equal opportunity. Even with this court ruling, everyone still does.
    That's like saying that in a poker game where there are 2 players who start with 100 chips, 5 players who start with 50 chips, and 3 players who start with 5 chips, "everyone has an equal chance to win." You're confusing "equal chance" and "theoretical chance."
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    That's like saying that in a poker game where there are 2 players who start with 100 chips, 5 players who start with 50 chips, and 3 players who start with 5 chips, "everyone has an equal chance to win." You're confusing "equal chance" and "theoretical chance."
    No, I'm not confusing anything, actually. Even Doctor King was looking for equal opportunity for everyone.

    In your poker example, it isn't equal opportunity because the players aren't starting out with the same amount of money, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make?

    Everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed. The difference is who acts on the opportunities, and how.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    That is what discovery is all about. The schools, who will be choosing students on merit should be able to produce records of their scoring system for admissions.



    I used "institutionalized" as a qualifier for a reason. The discrimination you are talking about was always illegal, the discrimination the SCOTUS ended used to be legal.



    Why not? And, anyway, until this ruling they would have discriminated against the white student in your scenario legally. It is a poor argument to say that ending LEGAL discrimination is bad because ILLEGAL discrimination is hard to prove.



    Well sure. Picking this kid over pretty much all other kids is discrimination, but it is MERIT based discrimination and he earned his admissions because he is awesome. Merit based discrimination is something anyone can earn so it is not unequal in its application.
    Interesting. So let's say you have a majority-white university (and prefer to keep it that way, not that that's in their mission statement or anything). So they pick one white student over the black student and entirely for racist reasons, and both students are equally qualified. What is the mechanism by which you'd prove it?

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No, I'm not confusing anything, actually. Even Doctor King was looking for equal opportunity for everyone.

    In your poker example, it isn't equal opportunity because the players aren't starting out with the same amount of money, so I'm not sure what point you were trying to make?

    Everyone in this country has the same opportunity to succeed. The difference is who acts on the opportunities, and how.
    So the difference isn't whether or not you're born into a world of gangs and violence as opposed to country clubs and gated communities? That doesn't make a difference? I understand that people need to believe in free will and "pulling yourself up by your boot straps," but you can take that to a level of stupidity. Denying that being born into an impoverished family, in a far worse school system, with the need to work very young to support your family and without the expectation to succeed in academics -- denying that all that is going to make a huge difference in what kind of chance you have to succeed in school? That's taking it to a level of stupidity. That's why we have affirmative action. It's to give those people a fair shot, to make sure that if they can show they're capable of overcoming the tremendous adversity facing them, it will be rewarded.

    So I find it ironic that a program intended to give more people a fair chance is deemed, by people such as yourself, a program that reduces the fairness of the system. I've got news for you, if you were born in Detroit's inner city and you have a single mother and three brothers and need food stamps to survive, life isn't going to be very fair for you. If you disagree, I urge you to go there for a week and tell me what you think.
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