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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    well where you miss the point is that title VII makes racial discrimination wrong

    but employers can discriminate on other reasons-like personal appearance for example

    there is a mantra EEO officers say

    You can hire/fire someone for a good reason
    a bad reason
    or NO REASON at all as long as its not an ILLEGAL reason (race, creed, gender, age, color, or handicap)

    schools should be similar
    Turtle - if you condemn preferences based on race do you extend that condemnation to supporting preferences based on legacy or financial considerations?
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    public schools true

    so I guess Michigan shouldn't let in a dullard who can throw a football like Tom Brady or hit a turnaround Jump shot like one of the "Fab Five"?
    They shouldn't no, but show business does pay.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    public schools true

    so I guess Michigan shouldn't let in a dullard who can throw a football like Tom Brady or hit a turnaround Jump shot like one of the "Fab Five"?
    If one truly believes in the principle of ADMITTING ONLY THE BEST ACADEMICALLY QUALFIED - then one should apply that principle to ALL colleges and universities regardless of their funding source.

    Or does one believe that principles are only for the common folk and not for the rich upper class who can buy their way around them?

    And yes indeed - I would strongly support not having a jump shot or passing ability determine if you get in to U of M. And every other school in the land as well.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    If one truly believes in the principle of ADMITTING ONLY THE BEST ACADEMICALLY QUALFIED - then one should apply that principle to ALL colleges and universities regardless of their funding source.

    Or does one believe that principles are only for the common folk and not for the rich upper class who can buy their way around them?

    And yes indeed - I would strongly support not having a jump shot or passing ability determine if you get in to U of M. And every other school in the land as well.
    Why is it that when some people find something they think is a good thing their very next act is to demand that thing be mandatory for everyone else?
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Why is it that when some people find something they think is a good thing there very next act is to demand that thing be forced on everyone else?
    Human nature is that we are all selfish at the core.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Well, no. They will be admitted on merit as well.
    Which you will have no quantifiable way of knowing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The SCOTUS ruling was to end the racial discrimination.
    No, it was a ruling to end one form of a quantifiable type of discrimination. The ruling doesn't possess the means to end discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    If highly qualified black kids get denied while lower qualified white kids get in then that is discrimination and they can sue the school if they want.
    If the school picks a qualified white candidate over an equally qualified black candidate for racist reasons, there will be no way to prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    All the SCOTUS did was end institutionalized racial discrimination.
    One type of institutionalized discrimination, nothing more.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Yes - your point about government is a true one. However, if we are going to have a society based on meritocracy, should we not at least try to foster merit in all aspects of college admissions regardless if those preferences come from government or alumni or those who run the place?

    Your point about the purpose of athletes is undeniable. But those same school would still field football teams and basketball teams if they simply had to recruit among the admitted student body. Those of greater athletic ability but lesser academic ability would inevitably find their way to lesser schools where academically they would be a far better fit and they could play there. Is the purpose of elite schools to field a great football team or is it to educate the student body?
    To answer your last question about the "elite schools", I think that depends on what these schools are looking to accomplish in the athletics world. If high level athletics is what makes them elite, then I'm all in support of their quest to find the best athletes who aren't necessarily the brightest. Now if we're talking the Ivies wanting to be competitive in hockey and they bring in some kid who can't spell cat but is a great goal scorer, then I think they have turned an "elite" environment upside down.

    It's all hard to say, but I know I dislike government imposed regulations superceding private decisions, even in public colleges.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Let us hope that this is simply one step in getting rid OF ALL PREFERENCES in college admissions. And I do mean ALL. If we want to admit the most qualified based on HS GPA and some test scores like the SAT's - then lets use those and let in the best and deny admission to anybody else not making that standard of admission.

    How many here would support that?
    Well. THen get it put in the US Constitution like the voters in Michigan put it in theirs.

    BTW:
    The court did not address whether race preferences are permissible which the court already upheld under the previous University of Michigan Grutter court ruling but only whether states can restrict their use.

    From The Detroit News: High court upholds Mich. affirmative action ban | The Detroit News

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    To answer your last question about the "elite schools", I think that depends on what these schools are looking to accomplish in the athletics world. If high level athletics is what makes them elite, then I'm all in support of their quest to find the best athletes who aren't necessarily the brightest. Now if we're talking the Ivies wanting to be competitive in hockey and they bring in some kid who can't spell cat but is a great goal scorer, then I think they have turned an "elite" environment upside down.

    It's all hard to say, but I know I dislike government imposed regulations superceding private decisions, even in public colleges.
    For me, if the principle is correct - it needs to be applied across the board and lets roundly call out and expose thin efforts to get around the principle. If the principle is that the fairest way to admit students is by academic merit - and academic merit is defined as HS GPA and SAT's - then lets hold to that and only that. If that is the principle lets hold to that.

    I do not care if it is a public school or a private school. I do not care if the admission is based on race or money or athletics if it is a preference that gets around the agreed upon principle.

    Right is right and wrong is wrong and it is not government involvement which changes that principle. It should apply across the board if we believe in that principle.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    For me, if the principle is correct - it needs to be applied across the board and lets roundly call out and expose thin efforts to get around the principle. If the principle is that the fairest way to admit students is by academic merit - and academic merit is defined as HS GPA and SAT's - then lets hold to that and only that. If that is the principle lets hold to that.

    I do not care if it is a public school or a private school. I do not care if the admission is based on race or money or athletics if it is a preference that gets around the agreed upon principle.

    Right is right and wrong is wrong and it is not government involvement which changes that principle. It should apply across the board if we believe in that principle.
    The only principle that I apply to colleges is they should admit who they want, without the government telling them who they should admit. It's the same principle I apply to business. Neither one of us is wrong - we just have different principles.

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