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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

  1. #231
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not much. Don't get me wrong, I don't argue they are doing a good job. I am arguing that qualifications may be more than we think. I'd assess motivation, ability to finish, how well they think over memorize. And I'd certainly give a writing test over a multiple choice test. All labor intensive but more meaningful.
    Surely it would be less labor intensive than accepting students who aren't college material, then either allowing them to fail or trying to remedy their academic deficits.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    This simply shows me that the compass test (alone) has limited value. When you say that "this was not uncommon" does that mean that more commonly the higher score on the compass test meant lower GPA/graduation rates or simply that some (not most) low scores on a compass test were obtained by those later found to be good students?
    Studies show nearly all such test have limited value, including the ACT. This is my point.

    I'm saying that the scores not being indicative is common. High scores doing poorly, and low scores doing well. The scores seem to be poor predictors.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by pogomutt View Post
    So how would this apply to tests in mathematics, physics, or chemistry? How do academics "subjectify" hard science, where new age bull**** plays no purchase? It's an anecdotal muse. I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.
    There are studies, and Math folks report the same type of problems.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Surely it would be less labor intensive than accepting students who aren't college material, then either allowing them to fail or trying to remedy their academic deficits.
    That is what I argue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Of course the problem then becomes one of the recipe and who is to judge the result put before us. And - in all humility i confess - I do not know how to fairly do that so one is not unfairly disadvantaged over another.
    Eh, there's that issue with "fairness" again. It's a poor basis for a standard. There's an argument for "unfairness" in EVERY standard you attempt to push. It comes down to which level of "unfairness" you feel is most reasonable to be quite honest.

    We took race into consideration as a plus because for so long society took race into consideration as a minus. Plain and simple - it was an attempt to right a wrong. But in doing so we committed further wrongs in denying academically qualified people spots in universities at the expense of not so qualified people. That is not a good thing and perhaps even perpetuates racial wrongs in further generations creating malice and resentment where otherwise none had previously flourished or taken root.
    Agree with you here. I'm one of those people that think often we attempt to do something that is worth while, necessary, and beneficial in a particular context but then the context changes and the action you take doesn't change to reflect that new context and causes unforseen issues.

    I am happy you embrace the principle of admitting the best and the brightest and GPA and test scores seem to be the only objective way to accomplish that. We live in a land where college is now plentiful and all who are able can find a place at some level and prove themselves.
    Here's where I think you missed my earlier post and my point. I actually don't agree with your principle of doing it JUST on academic prowess. If you'll see my earlier post you'll note my feeling is that public universities should be able to choose how they wish to do their admissions, but that the choice should be relevant to things a person has DONE not simply who they are. My feeling is that private universities should be able to choose however they wish to admit people, providing an avenue for schools who feel that some of those more inherent qualities contribute to an overall better environment.

    I'm not one that feels that every college has to be cookie cutter or needs to value certain things in an equal fashion. I think vareity breeds success over all. You can see my earlier post on this for more in depth as to what I mean in terms of those different categories.

    As I said, I think "best" is a pretty subjective term. I do think schools should be looking for the "best", but the "Best" is something that each school may define differently. What I agreed with was that if YOUR principle is that academia should only be filled with the "Brighest", and that "brightest" refers to academic success, then it's completely in line with that principle to suggest enrollment is only decided based on GPA and some test scores.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I get your point but that never was and is not now my argument. I am not basing this on the Constitution. I am basing it on the simple principle that the best and brightest should be admitted.
    I do not support rigid application of that principle if it were to exclude exceptional athletes or artists, or even just people from different places. I also support legacy preference to some extent: family traditions are important.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not really, they seek diversity. The point is no law mandates that they do this. Such is not affirmative action as subscribed by law.
    When a university wants to "take race into consideration" it is using a dog whistle for affirmative action.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    When a university wants to "take race into consideration" it is using a dog whistle for affirmative action.
    Again, if that were so, they'd win in court. They don't. The court rules against them every time.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Again, if that were so, they'd win in court. They don't. The court rules against them every time.
    I didn't say it was a good dog whistle, but it was a dog whistle nonetheless.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I didn't say it was a good dog whistle, but it was a dog whistle nonetheless.
    No, I've talked with quite a few. They are responding largely to a student desire for diversity. It's actually a selling point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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