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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    I do not want to see anyone not have an equal opportunity, however I feel that AA basically goes further to say that the races and genders are NOT equal. When a program is put in place giving preference points to minorities and women, that says that on an equal playing field, women and minorities cannot compete with white men. It is almost declaring a superior race and that we must provide a head start for everyone else.

    That in itself is propagating racism/sexism.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tlmorg02 View Post
    I do not want to see anyone not have an equal opportunity, however I feel that AA basically goes further to say that the races and genders are NOT equal. When a program is put in place giving preference points to minorities and women, that says that on an equal playing field, women and minorities cannot compete with white men. It is almost declaring a superior race and that we must provide a head start for everyone else.

    That in itself is propagating racism/sexism.
    No, it's saying that women and minorities are victims of institutionalized bias and have been for centuries.

    A white man with a felony record has the same likelihood of being given a job offer as a black man with a clean record. Equal playing field my ass.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What would be the qualifications? Legacy for example would favor whites overall. Test scores and GPAs have limitations as predictors. And are only a small part of any admission process (more a bulk early weed out).
    Legacy is not a qualification.
    While grades and test scores may not be perfect, they're way ahead of using ethnicity or race as a qualification.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Grades and standardized test scores are a great starting point since past performance is a good predictor of future success.
    Not as much as you think. Grade inflation hurts the credibility of grades, and test scores tell us very little. Most schools only use them to shrink the number they need to look at.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Legacy is not a qualification.
    While grades and test scores may not be perfect, they're way ahead of using ethnicity or race as a qualification.
    Legacy is used, and not subject to challenge. After the initial weed out, few care about grades and tests. Michigan uses a point system that includes many things, including legacy, where you live, extra curriculum activities, and athletics. None can be challenged.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not as much as you think. Grade inflation hurts the credibility of grades, and test scores tell us very little. Most schools only use them to shrink the number they need to look at.
    Nonsense. What you are trying to sell is the concept that the primary education system produces nothing of value to guide selection into secondary education. If that is the case then a pure lottery system is as good as any other and, as a bonus, would likely yield perfect "diversity".
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Nonsense. What you are trying to sell is the concept that the primary education system produces nothing of value to guide selection into secondary education. If that is the case then a pure lottery system is as good as any other and, as a bonus, would likely yield perfect "diversity".
    I didn't say nothing. I said less than you think. Grade inflation is real.

    One day next month every student at Loyola Law School Los Angeles will awake to a higher grade point average. But it’s not because they are all working harder. The school is retroactively inflating its grades, tacking on 0.333 to every grade recorded in the last few years. The goal is to make its students look more attractive in a competitive job market. In the last two years, at least 10 law schools have deliberately changed their grading systems to make them more lenient. These include law schools like New York University and Georgetown, as well as Golden Gate University and Tulane University, which just announced the change this month. Some recruiters at law firms keep track of these changes and consider them when interviewing, and some do not. - See more at: Grade Inflation in American Education - EducationNews.org

    So how much can they really mean?

    And ACT tests?

    A study published Tuesday that probed the success of “test-optional” admissions policies in 33 public and private universities calls into question the need for such testing.

    Former Dean of Admissions for Bates College William Hiss led the study which tracked the grades and graduation rates of students who submitted their test results against those who did not over several years.

    Hiss’ data showed that there was a negligible difference in college performance between the two groups. Only .05 percent of a GPA point set “submitters” and “non-submitters” apart, and the difference in their graduation rates was just .6 percent.

    Do ACT and SAT scores really matter? New study says they shouldn't | The Rundown | PBS NewsHour

    So, how much can this mean?

    I'm saying colleges think less of them on the whole than you might think. They are not the end of the discussion.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Legacy is used, and not subject to challenge. After the initial weed out, few care about grades and tests. Michigan uses a point system that includes many things, including legacy, where you live, extra curriculum activities, and athletics. None can be challenged.
    Then the whole selection process needs to be revised. As Ttwtt points out, they'd be just as well off using a lottery system.

    And if they don't use grades and test scores as a primary qualification, then they have no business complaining about having to offer remedial classes.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Then the whole selection process needs to be revised. As Ttwtt points out, they'd be just as well off using a lottery system.

    And if they don't use grades and test scores as a primary qualification, then they have no business complaining about having to offer remedial classes.
    Maybe, but Harvard doesn't do remedial. Though they do inflate grades.

    I work a lot with placement testing, and I feel confident telling you they are useless. Very good students often score low. And often high scores struggle. There may be good reasons for this, but it calls all of this into question.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    No, it's saying that women and minorities are victims of institutionalized bias and have been for centuries.

    A white man with a felony record has the same likelihood of being given a job offer as a black man with a clean record. Equal playing field my ass.
    I agree that they have been victims of institutional bias in the past. But rather than give them a boost in points or preference, laws should be put into place that allow equal footing and equal opportunity for all. I am not a person who wishes to wipe the past away, I fully realize the wrongs that have occurred, as well as those that continue. However, I would rather give those victims the power to walk rather than have them depend on a crutch.

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