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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    No, I said compare students with equal qualifications and see whether there are more black students or more white students with those qualifications given admission. If so, then there is racial bias. If not, then not.
    What would be the qualifications? Legacy for example would favor whites overall. Test scores and GPAs have limitations as predictors. And are only a small part of any admission process (more a bulk early weed out).


    Anyway, this isn't directed at you, but thought I'd post it while I was here:

    Myth: Affirmative action forces employers to set quotas for the number of women and minorities they will employ.
    Reality: Quotas are illegal in affirmative action programs. Employers set targets (goals) for the employment of women and minorities and a time frame for achieving their targets. There are no legal penalties if goals are not met, as long as good faith efforts to achieve them are made.

    Myth: Affirmative action results in "reverse" discrimination against white men.
    Reality: A recent report by the Department of Labor found that of more than 3,000 discrimination opinions in Federal district courts from 1990-1994; fewer than 100 were claims of "reverse" discrimination. Of these, discrimination against white men was established in only six cases.

    Myth: Unqualified people are being hired and promoted to fulfill affirmative action requirements.
    Reality: When affirmative action programs are administered properly, only qualified people are hired. It is explicitly illegal to establish quotas and fill them with regard only to the race or gender of the applicant. Abuses of the programs must not be allowed, nor should they be used as an

    fsu.edu | Office of Equal Opportunity & Compliance

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Let us hope that this is simply one step in getting rid OF ALL PREFERENCES in college admissions. And I do mean ALL. If we want to admit the most qualified based on HS GPA and some test scores like the SAT's - then lets use those and let in the best and deny admission to anybody else not making that standard of admission.

    How many here would support that?
    I would. This is a very good decision by the Court.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What would be the qualifications? Legacy for example would favor whites overall. Test scores and GPAs have limitations as predictors. And are only a small part of any admission process (more a bulk early weed out).


    Anyway, this isn't directed at you, but thought I'd post it while I was here:

    Myth: Affirmative action forces employers to set quotas for the number of women and minorities they will employ.
    Reality: Quotas are illegal in affirmative action programs. Employers set targets (goals) for the employment of women and minorities and a time frame for achieving their targets. There are no legal penalties if goals are not met, as long as good faith efforts to achieve them are made.

    Myth: Affirmative action results in "reverse" discrimination against white men.
    Reality: A recent report by the Department of Labor found that of more than 3,000 discrimination opinions in Federal district courts from 1990-1994; fewer than 100 were claims of "reverse" discrimination. Of these, discrimination against white men was established in only six cases.

    Myth: Unqualified people are being hired and promoted to fulfill affirmative action requirements.
    Reality: When affirmative action programs are administered properly, only qualified people are hired. It is explicitly illegal to establish quotas and fill them with regard only to the race or gender of the applicant. Abuses of the programs must not be allowed, nor should they be used as an

    fsu.edu | Office of Equal Opportunity & Compliance
    Reality: In the last 100 years, we have gone from teaching Latin and Greek in high schools to teaching remedial English in college. Anybody besides me see a problem with this? If someone needs remedial English in college, then he doesn't belong in college. He belongs back in high school.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What would be the qualifications? Legacy for example would favor whites overall. Test scores and GPAs have limitations as predictors. And are only a small part of any admission process (more a bulk early weed out).

    {snip the FSU excuses for AA - or "good" gender/racial discrimination}
    That is exactly what the discussion is about - removing race/gender from the qualification process. Whether you call "diversity" a target or a goal, it can no longer be achieved by using race/gender in your qualification/selection process by tax funded institutions.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Reality: In the last 100 years, we have gone from teaching Latin and Greek in high schools to teaching remedial English in college. Anybody besides me see a problem with this? If someone needs remedial English in college, then he doesn't belong in college. He belongs back in high school.
    Oh, there is a problem. It has nothing to do with Affirmative action, but there is a problem. We've been working on the problem since the 80's and it has only gotten worse. But we might want to stop and really look at what is behind these problems: 1) a new expectation that everyone graduate. Back when they were teaching Latin and Greek, the expectation was about 40% would graduate. 2) Parents who think other kids should be held back, but not their kid. I can tell you a few parent stories that would make you shake your head. 3) state and federal politicians making decisions base on popular whim and not solid data. 4) a culture that has stopped valuing education and no longer believes education leads to success. 5) technology that both distracts and gives the false impression that knowing isn't as important when you can just google it. 5) Money. School for profit means anything that makes money is good. Developmental education brings in money. And publishers like Pearson are running the education world. For profit meas a lot of schools will take anyone who walks in the door and get as much as they can from that person. 6) we measure the wrong things when measuring teachers. The worse teachers are never called on it because they give students grades and avoid any conflict at the college level. Students support them by never complaining that they haven't learned anything.

    Those are just a few, but then again, they have nothing to do with affirmative action.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    We would first need to find a way to ensure that all students, in every classroom, have the same learning opportunities before they go to college.
    So are we going to assign them surrogate parents who give a crap?

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    That is exactly what the discussion is about - removing race/gender from the qualification process. Whether you call "diversity" a target or a goal, it can no longer be achieved by using race/gender in your qualification/selection process by tax funded institutions.
    It was a minor consideration, never to the point of actually discriminating against anyone or hurting whites. But they win these cases because AA doesn't allow anything that can be called a quote or a set aside. I just wish it bother everyone more when other things that tend to push out minorities, like legacy, or donation, or any of a half dozen preferences more. Race has a law that prevents it. It's not discrimination that bothers most, as they accept it daily. It's discrimination that might benefit someone not "us."

    And that's what I'm getting at. what is a qualification, and how do we know someone, anyone is more or less qualified?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaddelamancha View Post
    We would first need to find a way to ensure that all students, in every classroom, have the same learning opportunities before they go to college.
    Is this support for vouchers? A giant step in that direction is being able to choose the classroom that your student attends.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It was a minor consideration, never to the point of actually discriminating against anyone or hurting whites. But they win these cases because AA doesn't allow anything that can be called a quote or a set aside. I just wish it bother everyone more when other things that tend to push out minorities, like legacy, or donation, or any of a half dozen preferences more. Race has a law that prevents it. It's not discrimination that bothers most, as they accept it daily. It's discrimination that might benefit someone not "us."

    And that's what I'm getting at. what is a qualification, and how do we know someone, anyone is more or less qualified?
    Grades and standardized test scores are a great starting point since past performance is a good predictor of future success.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Reality: In the last 100 years, we have gone from teaching Latin and Greek in high schools to teaching remedial English in college. Anybody besides me see a problem with this? If someone needs remedial English in college, then he doesn't belong in college. He belongs back in high school.
    And if you think this is a result of affirmative action, you're delusional.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
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    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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