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Thread: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    White on black, black on white, it's all racism.

    And, while it's less widespread and less acceptable than it used to be, it is a lot more common than sightings of the Loch Ness Monster, and far more real.
    Fantabulous. How does one deal with white on black racism? How does one identify and handle it?

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    My preference would be that public colleges and universities would be a meritocracy. How each individual school wants to weight the actions that factor into admission would be up to them. If they want to go purely academic performance, that's fine. If they want to give weight to extra-curriculars, I'm fine with that. If they want to give weight to an individual with a compelling life story or a compelling essay, that's fine. If they want to look at community or charitable services done and factor that in, cool. I don't think every University has to be absolutely cookie cutter and I'm fine with different ones valuing certain aspects of what a person has done in their life differently.

    However, I do think it should be MERIT, not who you are. I'm not in favor of weighing someone's application higher simply because they're a legacy. I'm not in favor of weighing someone higher because they're a minority race. I'm not in favor of a school weighing someone higher because they're male or female because the schools population is heavily slanted in the oppsite direction. I'm not in favor of a school weighing someone higher because they're in-state as opposed to out-of-state. I'm not in favor of a school weighing someone higher because they're from a state the school doens't have a student from (My University actively attempted to get a student from every state in the US).

    I think Private Schools should be able to do their selections in any legal way they want. In their cases, if they feel artificially creating a racially diverse campus is beneficial then be my guest. If they feel that legacies are important and a grand tradition, then that's fine. But I think in terms of public universities it should be based on what you DO...not who you are.

    Then again, I'm one of those strange people that would prefer a society where everyone DOESN'T go to college because to have such a society then the entire notion of college generally has to be watered down to a useless degree.
    I think part of this point has been totally lost in this discussion. The talk has all focused on whether or not UM will use race as a criteria; but that's not what the court decided. The court didn't rule against affirmative action, they ruled that voters should be allowed to ban it.


    But I totally agree with the rest with one caveat; who you are shouldn't matter, but where you came from should. Admissions should weigh both the wealth of the applicant as well as the school district they came from.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The whole idea that we would fix racial discrimination with racial discrimination has always been a non-starter. If minority children can't get in to college because their high school education was poor then fix the high school. If they don't get in because the school discriminated due to skin color then fire the school administrator that made that choice.

    Affirmative action in school admissions has always been a unworkable solution to a problem whose root causes were politically protected and deemed not fixable.
    The meritocrat is often considered a racist, a bully, and an asshole. This is how the world works.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    You may want to tell that to the poster who thinks universities are superior to colleges.
    Then yeah, that.. Sorry.

    Although, FWIW Haaaaavaaaad is overrated. They have some great graduate programs, but their undergrad is mediocre at best. And it's not just them, It's a common theme among most of the Ivy schools (Cornell being the exception). Law school; great! Engineering? Don't bother. Humanities? Sure, but you'll never recoup the cost of tuition.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Agreed. But Harvard seems to do okay in the recognition department without Michigan style athletic teams don't they? What is so sacred about athletics that we must sacrifice the principle of academic merit upon that altar?
    Harvard is one of the few schools in the country that is exceedingly well known and is such largely because of their educational prowess than sports. Yale is another.

    Michigan is not. Outside of those living in mitten state, if there wasn't college athletics I highly doubt many average people would give Michigan a second thought as their school of choice as opposed to any other "big" state school. Michigan is a great school, but you're kidding yourself if you think that if college Athletics didn't exist that it'd have the same cache of something like a Princeton.

    This isn't a slight on Michigan. It's true of the vast majority of "big name" schools in this country.

    Do you think anyone outside of North Carolina or possibly in the legal profession would give two ****s about, or even know of, "Duke" if not for their basketball team?

    Do you think Penn State in the middle of bum-****-nowhere would be one of the most well known college that draws from all across the country for it's student body if not for Football?

    Hell, I look here in my home state. Virginia Tech is the second best known school in this state behind UVA and that's pretty much singularly due to their athletics. I'd suggest in terms of pure academics, William & Mary would be worlds ahead of Tech. Meanwhile I've witnessed first hand as small schools like George Mason and VCU had their student body, and campuses, explode after sporting success.

    And it wasn't just the sports programs that benefited at Mason thanks to their final four run. My wife was going there at the time as multiple academic facilities were being renovated or completely constructed to give updated facilities to those departments thanks to the influx of cash.

    Yes...Harvard, Princton, and Yale have done wonderfully over CENTURIES as being schools recognized the country over largely due to their academic successes. You have a few others that get by as being the bell weather of educational universities, such as MIT.

    But I'd wager Louisville is more well known, and more likely to attract the average person, than Dartmouth. And I'd say you likely have far more students dreaming and hoping for the chance to be a golden domer over at Notre Dame then they are at walking the halls of John Hopkins. And it's not because of the great academic programs there (even though those programs may be wonderful).

    The amount of money that sports brings in, the amount of attention it draws to the school, is something that I can't see the Universities giving up without a strong fight. FAR more than having to forgo race based admissions today. For many of these BIG schools, it's a cyclical thing. Many of those big name schools have a great academic record. But that record is helped out by the fact they can afford robust staffs, great facilities, and well funded departments. And they can help pay for those things thanks to the revenue sports brings in and the additional registration they get thanks to the recognition via sports.

    Would Michigian be as big, with as many departments, with as quality of staff, with as many students today if The Big House never existed and was unheard of? If the Fab 5 never captivated peoples attention? If Bo Schembeckler didn't have 20 years of domination? Or if Charles Woodson wasn't heismaning his way into a national championship? Personally, I'd say no. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be a sterling institution, but I think someone would be crazy to suggest it'd be at the same height of recognition and financial prowess that it's at today if not for it's sporting legacy.

    While I don't think college sports needs to be removed from the admissions process, I wouldn't shed a tear if it was. But I do think that a large number of universities would fight it tooth and nail. And I think there would be a good chance that many universities would suffer in quality due to the decision, not improve.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    You don't know the difference between college and university. Harvard College isn't and never will be below Golden Gate University. Or Rutgers University, since I see you live in NJ.
    OMG this is a stupid retort. I didn't say they were! Why do you lie and try to make it seem so? Intellectual dishonesty will not win arguments.
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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    High court upholds Mich. affirmative action ban | The Detroit News

    "The Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld Michiganís ban on using race as a factor in college admissions.

    The justices said in a 6-2 ruling that Michigan voters had the right to change their state constitution in 2006 to prohibit public colleges and universities from taking account of race in admissions decisions. The justices said a lower federal court was wrong to set aside the change as discriminatory."


    Students of all races can now know that they got in to Michigan schools on their merit.



    I totally support equal rights, but I don't believe that there's a fair way to guarantee equal results.




    "Tolerance is giving every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Then yeah, that.. Sorry.

    Although, FWIW Haaaaavaaaad is overrated. They have some great graduate programs, but their undergrad is mediocre at best. And it's not just them, It's a common theme among most of the Ivy schools (Cornell being the exception). Law school; great! Engineering? Don't bother. Humanities? Sure, but you'll never recoup the cost of tuition.
    I agree! If I was going to be a lawyer or doctor, I would consider Harvard. If I wanted to be an Engineer, I'd consider MIT or Stanford before Harvard.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    I totally support equal rights, but I don't believe that there's a fair way to guarantee equal results.




    "Tolerance is giving every other human being every right that you claim for yourself." ~ Robert Green Ingersoll
    I think this is the inherit problem. We should only focus on equal opportunity not equal results. Individuals will have different abilities and to say that anything other than opportunity should be equal is to create a losing battle.

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    Re: High Court Upholds Michigan Affirmative Action Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    OMG this is a stupid retort. I didn't say they were! Why do you lie and try to make it seem so? Intellectual dishonesty will not win arguments.
    Then you may want to check your own posts before you make them. You said it, I posted what you wrote.

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