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Thread: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

  1. #41
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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Convince me with logic and reasoning, not just rhetoric.
    I don't know if fraud is the word I'd use, but clearly there is no nation that can be attacked to end it. So essentially you're talking about elevating individuals and groups to the importance of war status. Now, we might is the little "w," like a war on drugs. And we might be just as ineffective at such a war. For example, much of what we're doing is excess and largely ineffective. We likely created more future terrorist than we've killed or discouraged. And we have lowered our standards to the point of decreasing the difference between us and them (not saying there is no difference). We've excused torture, assassination, aggression, and domestic spying. This has not made us either better nor safer.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't know if fraud is the word I'd use, but clearly there is no nation that can be attacked to end it. So essentially you're talking about elevating individuals and groups to the importance of war status. Now, we might is the little "w," like a war on drugs. And we might be just as ineffective at such a war. For example, much of what we're doing is excess and largely ineffective. We likely created more future terrorist than we've killed or discouraged. And we have lowered our standards to the point of decreasing the difference between us and them (not saying there is no difference). We've excused torture, assassination, aggression, and domestic spying. This has not made us either better nor safer.
    I dont think there is anything to excuse. We condemn domestic spying and torture, and theres nothing wrong with assassination, interrogation, aggression, etc so long as its confined to enemies. However, you make an entirely reasonable point that the way we go about defending the lives of american citizens may not be effective. I dont totally agree, but thats politics. The primary job of the federal govt is to ensure our rights by defending our lives. Terrorists still want to kill us, so we have to do something to stop them.

    If you think ignoring them or retreating might stop them from trying to kill us, then maybe there is something to it. I certainly think we need to remove our military from almost everywhere in the world and concentrate on defending our home borders. But I dont think we need to stop killing them where we find them.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Yes it is. Islamic terrorists keep attacking us. And the 2001 AUF has not changed.
    Where are they attacking us then? In the same countries we're blowing them up in?

    Terrorists keep attacking us
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #44
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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    I dont think there is anything to excuse. We condemn domestic spying and torture, and theres nothing wrong with assassination, interrogation, aggression, etc so long as its confined to enemies. However, you make an entirely reasonable point that the way we go about defending the lives of american citizens may not be effective. I dont totally agree, but thats politics. The primary job of the federal govt is to ensure our rights by defending our lives. Terrorists still want to kill us, so we have to do something to stop them.

    If you think ignoring them or retreating might stop them from trying to kill us, then maybe there is something to it. I certainly think we need to remove our military from almost everywhere in the world and concentrate on defending our home borders. But I dont think we need to stop killing them where we find them.
    Yes, there is something wrong with assassination. It's both illegal and immoral. And I didn't say interrogation. I said torture. Calling torture interrogation is simple lying. And torture is immoral and illegal as well. Aggression makes us more imperialistic, like the evil empire in star wars.

    And no one said anything about ignoring them or retreating (though I don't know from where we'd retreat from). I said to combat them as they are, individuals and groups, not countries. They is no one we can invade, no government we can overthrow, no single group we can destroy to end terrorism. The premise was flawed from the beginning.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The premise was flawed from the beginning.
    Not really. It was deliberately contrived to create an excuse for endless war to create a massive profit center for a select few.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Convince me with logic and reasoning, not just rhetoric.
    If you don't understand it 13 years in, I fear you will never understand it.

    13 years in, if you still believe the sophistry of the AUMF, you will never understand it.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Where are they attacking us then? In the same countries we're blowing them up in?

    Terrorists keep attacking us
    Because their religion demands it

  8. #48
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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes, there is something wrong with assassination. It's both illegal and immoral. And I didn't say interrogation. I said torture. Calling torture interrogation is simple lying. And torture is immoral and illegal as well. Aggression makes us more imperialistic, like the evil empire in star wars.

    And no one said anything about ignoring them or retreating (though I don't know from where we'd retreat from). I said to combat them as they are, individuals and groups, not countries. They is no one we can invade, no government we can overthrow, no single group we can destroy to end terrorism. The premise was flawed from the beginning.
    And I said torture as well. I simply dont consider as torture the same things as you do. But it seems you agree with droning them, since its combating individuals, not countries.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    If you don't understand it 13 years in, I fear you will never understand it.

    13 years in, if you still believe the sophistry of the AUMF, you will never understand it.
    Perhaps you are on the wrong website then. This is a debate forum. If you just want to declare things and insult people, this is not the place.

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    Re: Court orders U.S. to release memo on drones, al-Awlaki killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Perhaps you are on the wrong website then. This is a debate forum. If you just want to declare things and insult people, this is not the place.
    I'm not insulting anybody. I am merely stating what is perhaps a minority opinion.

    Are your posts really debate? Or just disproven government talking points? Sounds like a Sunday Morning Talking Heads show to me.

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