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The US is an oligarchy, study concludes[W:192]

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

People elect the politicians. The politicians make the decisions. Thus we have a representative democracy. That those politicians CHOOSE to make decisions in part based on power connections does not change the fundamental nature of the political system in the US. Change only requires individuals voting in someone else. An actual oligarchy would have no elections, no judicial system, no checks and balances.

So this is just more blame avoidance.

Isn't congress supposed to be the voice of the people? Vote FOR the people? So when you elect someone and the overwhelming majority of the people say NO, and they vote YES, it is fine and dandy in your eyes? As in the TARP bailout of 2008. People said hell no, but what do they do? Give the banks trillions and don't prosecute a single soul. That there tells me democracy is dead. The republic is dead. Doesn't matter who you elect, D or R. When a majority are on the taken it doesn't matter.

To think elections are fair and balanced is another joke. Voter ID comes to mind. Congress is just full of bs and most dolts eat it up because they don't do their own research and form their own opinions. Watching TV news isn't doing research either, they lie worse than CONgress. Start reading every day on the problems of this country and you will realize we are deeply F'ed in the A.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

who are the oligarch's?

The .01% who fund a majority of politcial candidates for "favors". The same people who own 90% of all assets.

Why do you think since QE started it seems to only increase the stock market to all time highs in an economy where jobs are flat lined and people keep dropping out of the workforce? Could it be that these value destroyers are heavily invested in the markets and pull a LOT of weight in DC?
 
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Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

I don't know, I think the real issue here is that Republican's use "Socialism" as a scare tactic to get people riled up. Obama is not even the most liberal president we've had.

Do the Repuliwont's call him a socialist? I wasn't aware of that.

I call him one because so many of his policies are society centric instead of supportive of individual rights, competitive capitalist economics and he wants to redistribute wealth from the earners to the intentionally lazy.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

How anyone could call Barack Obama a "socialist" or a "committed Marxist" is simply beyond reason when one looks at the real world

2012 Democracy Index places the US in 21st place

But according to five justices on the Supreme Court bench, there is no political corruption no matter how much money is being spent to influence Congress

Having read it now, I must say I am not surprised by the results. They correspond to what one would expect from Tullock and Buchanan, Calculus of Consent. What is surprising is the relatively inexactness of measurement exemplified here: "The rather low explanatory power of all three independent variables taken together (with
an R-squared of just .074 in Model 4) may partly result from the limitations of our proxy
measures, particularly with respect to economic elites (since our “affluent” proxy is admittedly
imperfect) and perhaps with respect to interest groups (since only a small fraction of politically
active groups are included in our measure). Again, the implication of these limitations in our data
is that interest groups and economic elites actually wield more policy influence than our
estimates indicate. But it is also possible that there may exist important explanatory factors
outside the three theoretical traditions addressed in this analysis. Or there may be a great deal of
idiosyncrasy in policy outputs, or variation across kinds of issues, that would be difficult for any
general model to capture. With our present data we cannot tell."

But thank you very much for the article. It had been some time since I had thought about Arrow, Buchanan or Downs for that matter. That was quite stimulating.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Isn't congress supposed to be the voice of the people? Vote FOR the people? So when you elect someone and the overwhelming majority of the people say NO, and they vote YES, it is fine and dandy in your eyes? As in the TARP bailout of 2008. People said hell no, but what do they do? Give the banks trillions and don't prosecute a single soul. That there tells me democracy is dead. The republic is dead. Doesn't matter who you elect, D or R. When a majority are on the taken it doesn't matter.

To think elections are fair and balanced is another joke. Voter ID comes to mind. Congress is just full of bs and most dolts eat it up because they don't do their own research and form their own opinions. Watching TV news isn't doing research either, they lie worse than CONgress. Start reading every day on the problems of this country and you will realize we are deeply F'ed in the A.

A great post!

If there was ever an example of how the congress does not give a damn about what the people think, and conversely, govern as they are told to by Wall Street, it was TARP.

Obama is not a socialist, he is a fascist authoritarian, and the ACA is a perfect demonstration of that. Not only was it designed and mostly written by the health insurance industry, it commands the citizen to do something that benefits those corporations.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Isn't congress supposed to be the voice of the people? Vote FOR the people? So when you elect someone and the overwhelming majority of the people say NO, and they vote YES, it is fine and dandy in your eyes? As in the TARP bailout of 2008. People said hell no, but what do they do? Give the banks trillions and don't prosecute a single soul. That there tells me democracy is dead. The republic is dead. Doesn't matter who you elect, D or R. When a majority are on the taken it doesn't matter.

To think elections are fair and balanced is another joke. Voter ID comes to mind. Congress is just full of bs and most dolts eat it up because they don't do their own research and form their own opinions. Watching TV news isn't doing research either, they lie worse than CONgress. Start reading every day on the problems of this country and you will realize we are deeply F'ed in the A.

No, its not fine. Its democracy. This is the result of democracy.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes


Don't believe that is what the five justices said. And I find it somewhat ironic that you assume the other 4 justices were not influenced by the oligarchy. The question is how do you regulate spending without putting government's finger on the scale and tipping it one way. I bet that a lot of people opposed to McCutcheon support Bloomberg's $50 million to support gun control or NEA, Planned Parenthood, Comcast, NBC, AFSCME, etc., spending.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Was it ever anything but an oligarchy? Is it even possible for it to be anything but an oligarchy in essence?
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

and I don't think those who call themselves "Libertarian" truly understand the consequences inherent in their beliefs.

The quote says nothing about said consequences.

Reducing government to bare minimum is the only way to change the oligarchy and restore a true republic.

That's the consequence inherent in libertarian beliefs. A better place.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

How anyone could call Barack Obama a "socialist" or a "committed Marxist" is simply beyond reason when one looks at the real world

Agree. So many of his decisions have been crony corporatism. One doesn't raise the money he raised without selling out to the oligarchs. Yet the peasants still buy it. Has the flavor of ancient Rome-as long as you provide free bread and gladiators you can keep the masses appeased.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Reducing government to bare minimum is the only way to change the oligarchy and restore a true republic.

That's the consequence inherent in libertarian beliefs. A better place.

So you think a corporate oligarchy would be a better place? I don't think so. That said, it appears that's what the US is evolving into.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

So you think a corporate oligarchy would be a better place? I don't think so. That said, it appears that's what the US is evolving into.

Corporations would never be able to form oligarchy without government involvement and protection that is the point.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Corporations would never be able to form oligarchy without government involvement and protection that is the point.

Are you arguing for a government that does not protect private property? If not then your statement is meaningless.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

No, its not fine. Its democracy. This is the result of democracy.

Well if we want to dig up semantics, the US is supposed to be a republic. Since America's inception it has slowly morphed into democracy (based on the republic principles, or so we were told), then crony-capitalism and fascism which we have now.
Bottom line, the people don't have a voice no matter who you elect.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Are you arguing for a government that does not protect private property? If not then your statement is meaningless.

I do not need to argue for such a government because no such government exists nor can it. Except of course an oligarchy which only pretects the property of vested interests.

The police , courts, prisons and law cannot protect you , me or anyone else they can only punish law breakers. Even the surpeme court has given more than one verdict on cases which clearly indicate it isnot the duty or job or responsibility of the police etc to protect anyone. They serve society at large ( in theory in reality they serve the government ).

So why bother with them at all. No mater how many laws you pass or how big the government gets your protection and protection of your property is still your responsibility alone.

We need some very limited laws and government to punish those who violate the rights of others. Not to protect anything.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Isn't congress supposed to be the voice of the people? Vote FOR the people? So when you elect someone and the overwhelming majority of the people say NO, and they vote YES, it is fine and dandy in your eyes? As in the TARP bailout of 2008. People said hell no, but what do they do? Give the banks trillions and don't prosecute a single soul. That there tells me democracy is dead. The republic is dead. Doesn't matter who you elect, D or R. When a majority are on the taken it doesn't matter.

To think elections are fair and balanced is another joke. Voter ID comes to mind. Congress is just full of bs and most dolts eat it up because they don't do their own research and form their own opinions. Watching TV news isn't doing research either, they lie worse than CONgress. Start reading every day on the problems of this country and you will realize we are deeply F'ed in the A.

And what percentage of the people who voted yes we're than voted out of office in the next election. The power still resides with the people it is just that the people are too stupid to take that power. They would rather watch the kardasians than find out the voting record of there state senator. That is the true problem with this country not money.

If the first time a politician went against the will of the people he was kicked out of office the next election and that cycle kept repeating itself within a few election cycles the system would be greatly improved.
Not that it will ever happen. We need to know the latest Hollywood gossip. It is much more important.
 
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Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

People elect the politicians. The politicians make the decisions. Thus we have a representative democracy. That those politicians CHOOSE to make decisions in part based on power connections does not change the fundamental nature of the political system in the US. Change only requires individuals voting in someone else. An actual oligarchy would have no elections, no judicial system, no checks and balances.

So this is just more blame avoidance.

This ignores the fact that in order for people to even have the slightest chance of running they have to be beholden to larger powers. Thus, even if someone new is bought in, the overall system remains the same. Just look at Bush to Obama, we still have continued aggressive military actions abroad, are still spying on the citizenry, are still letting the financial 'institutions' do as they please. The problem isn't one of who is in office or not, rather it is a systemic problem.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

I agree with the most basic concept of the OP that the USA, intended to be and that once was a representative republic governed by the people, is now an oligarchy:

Definition
of oligarchy (n)Bing Dictionary

  • ol·i·gar·chy
  • [ ólli gaàrkee ]


  • small governing group: a small group of people who together govern a nation or control an organization, often for their own purposes
  • entity ruled by oligarchy: a nation governed or an organization controlled by an oligarchy
  • government by small group: government or control by a small group of people

But I believe the oligarchy is the very people elected and appointed to the government itself. I believe that small group has become a permanent political class that exists purely to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal material wealth, and that everything it does is toward that end.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Well if we want to dig up semantics, the US is supposed to be a republic. Since America's inception it has slowly morphed into democracy (based on the republic principles, or so we were told), then crony-capitalism and fascism which we have now.
Bottom line, the people don't have a voice no matter who you elect.

Well, no it would not be a fascist government. While more and more power is being amassed in the Executive Branch and there seems to be a break down in the rule of law in the sense that it is equally applicable to everyone, the US is becoming more authoritarian. However we are not fascist. Fascism consistently has a nationalistic, racial element to it in which one group of people is seen as superior to all the rest and that becomes enshrined into the legal system. So while we are becoming more authoritarian in some ways (arguably), we are not fascistic.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Well if we want to dig up semantics, the US is supposed to be a republic. Since America's inception it has slowly morphed into democracy (based on the republic principles, or so we were told), then crony-capitalism and fascism which we have now.
Bottom line, the people don't have a voice no matter who you elect.

Its both. We choose our reps democractically, and they make decisions democratically. But its a Republic in that the citizens make decisions through their reps. Bottom line they DO have a voice, when they choose the initial rules and who implements them. People could change things anytime they want. They CHOOSE not to, through ignorance.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

I agree with the most basic concept of the OP that the USA, intended to be and that once was a representative republic governed by the people, is now an oligarchy:

Definition
of oligarchy (n)Bing Dictionary

  • ol·i·gar·chy
  • [ ólli gaàrkee ]


  • small governing group: a small group of people who together govern a nation or control an organization, often for their own purposes
  • entity ruled by oligarchy: a nation governed or an organization controlled by an oligarchy
  • government by small group: government or control by a small group of people

But I believe the oligarchy is the very people elected and appointed to the government itself. I believe that small group has become a permanent political class that exists purely to increase its own power, prestige, influence, and personal material wealth, and that everything it does is toward that end.

And they can be removed at any time by the people. A real oligarchy cant, like China.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

How anyone could call Barack Obama a "socialist" or a "committed Marxist" is simply beyond reason when one looks at the real world



2012 Democracy Index places the US in 21st place

But according to five justices on the Supreme Court bench, there is no political corruption no matter how much money is being spent to influence Congress

So, academics who grew up in the '60s became convinced through 60s rhetoric that America is ruled by economic elites. They rely on students for their research who they have taught in class that America is ruled by economic elites. Their studies are always positive, and the conclusion is always that America is ruled by economic elites. In order to avoid bias they submit their work to peer reviewed journals run by editors and reviewers who are all chosen because of their adherance to the idea that America is ruled by economic elites. The science is pretty much settled by now that America is ruled by economic elites.

Another area of "science" that I have doubts about. I'd love to get my hands on the background survey to settle one question I have about it. How did they determine what ordinary people think of issues like SEC regulations, Sarbanes-Oxley, Federal Reserve policy, etc. It seems to me that the opinions of ordinary schmoes on the street about such things would be dominated by ignorance of the subject and would mostly be impractacle. The perferences of regulated industries always figure into such policies because the industries are the ones who know the issues and know how regulations would impact their operations. Did these investigators conclude that America is an oligarchy because of this dynamic?
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

If the rich have their way, the poor not only will no longer get food stamps, they may not even be able to feed themselves when working a 40 hr job. Of course the middle class has shrunk as union jobs have disappeared and the economic philosophy of the "free market" since 1980 has created the most unequal society in American history. Not sure why an increasing government would shrink the middle class as we are constantly told about how much money those government slackers receive for doing nothing. Then there is the ever so small matter that government jobs numbers have decreased during the past five years.

With Obamacare the poor will be lucky to have a 40 hour week job rather than a 29 hour week. Union jobs have never been indicative of the middle class. Unions are big business and the union bosses priced their dues payers out of the market.

You're not certain why the middle class would shrink as government grows? Where do you think that money for big government is coming from? The poor? The rich? The Corporations? It's the middle class who always pays.

Where is that $trillion+ debt each year going? Where did all the 'stimulus' money go? All you need do is follow the money but it seems many are fearful of looking for what they may discover. Their beliefs may be shattered.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

I don't know, I think the real issue here is that Republican's use "Socialism" as a scare tactic to get people riled up. Obama is not even the most liberal president we've had.

No, Republicans use the term Socialists in order to be polite. Calling them "The Stupids" might seem to harsh.
 
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