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The US is an oligarchy, study concludes[W:192]

Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

AlbqOwl said:
Yes, technically there is a difference. But when we express to others that we have a clear conscience, the implication is that if they did something different than we did, they shouldn't have a clear conscience and we are superior in that regard. I am no different. When I do what I believe to be the right thing, and go out of my way to announce that I did the right thing, I am stating loud and clear that my motives and intentions are commendable; i.e. superior to those who don't share them. There is no shame in that. It is the American way so to speak. :)

(It isn't saying that I am superior, but just that my choice was superior to the opposing choice.)

Seriously, my personal ideology is that if something does not produce the intended results--in fact if we KNOW or don't CARE whether it produces intended results--then there is no nobility or merit in doing it at all. And certainly it is foolish to do it just to have a 'clear conscience'. If anything it should produce a state of guilt within us, not smugness. And certainly, our ethics should not produce a clear conscience when we do something that we KNOW or don't CARE whether it produces intended results.

When it comes to our vote, we should all be doing our damndest to discern who the superior candidate will be and get him/her on the ballot. And when it comes time to vote for the best candidate on the ballot, our vote should go to the one who will accomplish the most good, or at least do the least harm and who has a chance to win. So yeah, that sometimes means voting for the Republican or Democrat even though they are far less than what we had hoped for.

To 'throw away' our vote in protest or to make a statement might indeed give us a feeling of accomplishment but we should not have a clear conscience when we do it because we will have failed to make whatever small difference we could. And to vote for the lesser candidate because of reasons other than what is best for all is to create the kinds of oligarchy that are most destructive to this country.

There is no shame in trying and failing. The shame comes in not trying at all.
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I implied nothing at all. You might have thought I was implying something, but I wasn't.

I was merely reporting my emotional state the next morning. Smiling when you wake up. It's a good thing. The frigging election cycle has finally reached orgasm, and we can return to normal television programming. It's a good thing. :)

But you are correct in your criticism. Hopelessly romantic, but correct.

It is better to have tried and failed than to never have tried at all, for sure. I agree.

But the other side of the coin is that on the national level, and excepting the local level, your actual final choice comes down to just another human. It is rare that a perfect leader comes up through the political process, but it does happen.
 
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Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:
More faux-superiority. Struggling people who aren't as fortunate as you must be defective in some way. They're not ambitious enough. Right. Of course that's it. Nobody is poor for reasons beyond their own control. This is why we cannot make any kind of serious progress in this country. There's large factions that live in a delusion and can't accept the facts of how this country actually is.
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You seem to be debating yourself here rather than responding to my points.

I never said anyone was 'defective'. In fact I worked much of my youth for minimum wage, as did most of my friends. Whether 'they' are ambitious enough is beside the point. Many are able to support themselves throughout their lives without having ambitions beyond that and enjoy themselves in other ways. Parks, libraries, etc are all free and enjoyable for rich and poor.

We can be happy with our lives in many ways but being resentful of 'the rich' is not among them.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Hatuey said:
Obama isn't a socialist by definition... he's just a fascist, socialist, Marxist and capitalist - AT THE SAME TIME.
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Not as unusual as you might think.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
Not as unusual as you might think.
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Stupidity is usually... usual.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:
Why? I don't trust the states any more than I do Washington, in fact, I trust them even less. I trust individual counties, cities and towns even less. When you get down to smaller groups of people with the same mindset, you tend to get more and more abuse.
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The thing is that you can easily move to another of the 49 States. When the Feds screw up you have to leave the country. Not everyone everywhere has the same mindset, even in Washington.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Hatuey said:
Stupidity is usually... usual.
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Is it your understanding that, for example, Socialists have never been capitalists? Or Marxist Socialists? Or Capitalists? In fact there have been people who have been all of this at the same time, though without necessarily thinking of themselves in that light.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
Is it your understanding that, for example, Socialists have never been capitalists? Or Marxist Socialists? Or Capitalists? In fact there have been people who have been all of this at the same time, though without necessarily thinking of themselves in that light.
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Your phrasing is really peculiar grant. Nick stated that Obama was both a socialist and a capitalist. How is that possible? One believes in private ownership and the other is about public ownership. Can you both believe in state control of production and private control of production at the same time? Nope. Can you be a Marxist and a socialist? Sure. Those terms don't actually contradict each other. Can you be a socialist and Marxist and capitalist at the same time? Nope. Show us who has done it.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
You seem to be debating yourself here rather than responding to my points.

I never said anyone was 'defective'. In fact I worked much of my youth for minimum wage, as did most of my friends. Whether 'they' are ambitious enough is beside the point. Many are able to support themselves throughout their lives without having ambitions beyond that and enjoy themselves in other ways. Parks, libraries, etc are all free and enjoyable for rich and poor.

We can be happy with our lives in many ways but being resentful of 'the rich' is not among them.
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What you are completely not getting is that the age of climbing the corporate ladder is effectively over. Working hard and getting promoted really doesn't happen anymore. You just work hard and don't get paid enough to live on. There is no transitional early job >> better jobs dynamic. There is no amount of ambition that will take a person from fry cook to any salaried position. There is no promotion from stocking shelves. That was how things worked in your youth, but that's not how it is now. And being blind to that change isn't going to magically unmake it.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:
What you are completely not getting is that the age of climbing the corporate ladder is effectively over. Working hard and getting promoted really doesn't happen anymore. You just work hard and don't get paid enough to live on. There is no transitional early job >> better jobs dynamic. There is no amount of ambition that will take a person from fry cook to any salaried position. There is no promotion from stocking shelves. That was how things worked in your youth, but that's not how it is now. And being blind to that change isn't going to magically unmake it.
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Then how do you account for all those who are succeeding? I agree that it is much tougher now. The current government has built in so much additional risk and expense for employers and has done almost nothing to help the economy recover, so much opportunity that would otherwise exist is currently sidelined. Nobody is going to risk almost everything they have to start up or expand a business when the odds of losing it all are so high.

But thinking that if the rich had less, then everybody else would have more is the most damning and stupid component of modern day American liberalism that exists. It is as absurd as thinking that if you take water from the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end, there will be more water in the shallow end. And thinking if they would just raise the minimum wage, the poor would be somehow richer, is almost as foolish. There will be anecdotal incidents of success in that regard yes, but overall you just make it that much harder for those willing to work for a living to have opportunity to do so. And the more people go on government assistance, the worse the economy will be, and the less incentive there is for the private sector to generate wealth which in turn provides less tax revenues for the government to use to provide assistance to those not working.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
The thing is that you can easily move to another of the 49 States. When the Feds screw up you have to leave the country. Not everyone everywhere has the same mindset, even in Washington.
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HOW can a person with no bank account, a few dollars in their pocket and no transportation "easily move" to another state. Because we have a park with some shelter next to our office building, I get to meet homeless people fairly frequently, some of them are nice, some of them have addiction problems and a couple I've met even had jobs but working at minimum wage in a city with high rents makes it a bit difficult to find a place to live.

Why is Costco more profitable than WalMart even though Costco base salary is approximately twice as much as a Walmart worker receives?
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

AlbqOwl said:
Then how do you account for all those who are succeeding? I agree that it is much tougher now. The current government has built in so much additional risk and expense for employers and has done almost nothing to help the economy recover, so much opportunity that would otherwise exist is currently sidelined. Nobody is going to risk almost everything they have to start up or expand a business when the odds of losing it all are so high.

But thinking that if the rich had less, then everybody else would have more is the most damning and stupid component of modern day American liberalism that exists. It is as absurd as thinking that if you take water from the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end, there will be more water in the shallow end. And thinking if they would just raise the minimum wage, the poor would be somehow richer, is almost as foolish. There will be anecdotal incidents of success in that regard yes, but overall you just make it that much harder for those willing to work for a living to have opportunity to do so. And the more people go on government assistance, the worse the economy will be, and the less incentive there is for the private sector to generate wealth which in turn provides less tax revenues for the government to use to provide assistance to those not working.
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Tell us why the economy did better when marginal income rates were much higher than today? Why would CEOs receive an average 250% increase in wages during the same period, salaried workers wages only rose 1%? Why are American corporations sitting on more cash than at any time in history? Could it be that the "socialist" President and his minions have actually done everything the "trickle down" theorists said would make the economy grow, yet for some reason only a small percentage of Americans have benefitted? The economy has grown, it's the trickle-down part that is looking more like the 1% are pissing down on most Americans.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Somerville said:
Tell us why the economy did better when marginal income rates were much higher than today? Why would CEOs receive an average 250% increase in wages during the same period, salaried workers wages only rose 1%? Why are American corporations sitting on more cash than at any time in history? Could it be that the "socialist" President and his minions have actually done everything the "trickle down" theorists said would make the economy grow, yet for some reason only a small percentage of Americans have benefitted? The economy has grown, it's the trickle-down part that is looking more like the 1% are pissing down on most Americans.
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The more the government meddles with any system, the more disparity, the more winners and losers, there will be, and the worse off some segments of society are going to be. There is an old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats from the smallest dinghy to the largest freighter. . . .BUT. . . .if the government is taking more out of the economy than is being returned to it. . . .as testified by the 17 trillion dollar debt that is growing by billions each and every day. . . .the tide will not rise. Instead it will fall.

The fallacy of your logic is that if those CEO's were not getting all that money, then the guys at the lowest level would be getting it. That simply does not hold up in how the economy works. While there is corruption in all segments of society, including corporate America, the vast majority of those CEOs making those enormous salaries are doing so because they are helping those corporations to prosper. And a huge bunch of them are prospering overseas rather than here in America because our government is making it increasingly difficult to prosper here.

Instead of worrying about what isn't trickling down, we should focus on helping the guys at the bottom prosper by providing more incentive for them to have opportunity, options, good paying jobs. Then the economy begins bubbling up from the bottom--the tide begins to rise and all boats are lifted again. We have a government who doesn't understand that. Who puts more and more requirements, regulation, and restrictions on the private sector making opportunity more scarce for more people. A higher minimum wage in this economy is just one more nail in the coffin the government has been building for the private sector.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
The thing is that you can easily move to another of the 49 States. When the Feds screw up you have to leave the country. Not everyone everywhere has the same mindset, even in Washington.
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Sure, and when all of them are just as corrupt, what then?
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

AlbqOwl said:
The more the government meddles with any system, the more disparity, the more winners and losers, there will be, and the worse off some segments of society are going to be. There is an old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats from the smallest dinghy to the largest freighter. . . .BUT. . . .if the government is taking more out of the economy than is being returned to it. . . .as testified by the 17 trillion dollar debt that is growing by billions each and every day. . . .the tide will not rise. Instead it will fall.

The fallacy of your logic is that if those CEO's were not getting all that money, then the guys at the lowest level would be getting it. That simply does not hold up in how the economy works. While there is corruption in all segments of society, including corporate America, the vast majority of those CEOs making those enormous salaries are doing so because they are helping those corporations to prosper. And a huge bunch of them are prospering overseas rather than here in America because our government is making it increasingly difficult to prosper here.

Instead of worrying about what isn't trickling down, we should focus on helping the guys at the bottom prosper by providing more incentive for them to have opportunity, options, good paying jobs. Then the economy begins bubbling up from the bottom--the tide begins to rise and all boats are lifted again. We have a government who doesn't understand that. Who puts more and more requirements, regulation, and restrictions on the private sector making opportunity more scarce for more people. A higher minimum wage in this economy is just one more nail in the coffin the government has been building for the private sector.
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They don't understand CEO's.

The can understand if LeBron James makes a lot of money, or Miley Cyrus, or David Letterman, or Madonna, but their mind can't wrap around the idea that CEO's often have sought after talents as well, and can therefore command a higher price for them. They think it's just some guy at a desk shuffling papers and should get paid the same as someone in the office cubicle. I doubt even Oprah would go for that.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
Washington is one, The States are 50. The odds against that is 50-1.
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And the odds of it happening on a town-by-town basis are much higher. So why not push town power over state power? Of course, we know that in individual towns, cities and counties, there's some really shady stuff going on, a sure sign that these towns shouldn't have the power they do. Why do we think the states would be any better?
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

jonny5 said:
Sure, its fun to quote stuff in order to make sarcastic points, but it doesnt add substance to the debate. And oligarchy is defined by decisions being made by a small number of entities, as with the ruling committee in China. The US is defined by federalism and representation, in which power is distributed to many different entities, and those entities chosen directly by individuals.

That other entities try to influence those choices does not directly give them power. As usual, this debate is simply about liberals being upset that everyone doesnt agree with them, and that they have to COMPETE for power.
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I guess you didn't read the study cited in the OP.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:
Forgive me while I laugh hysterically.
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Nothing to forgive. Smaller minds use such reactions to mask inadequacies.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Cephus said:
And the odds of it happening on a town-by-town basis are much higher. So why not push town power over state power? Of course, we know that in individual towns, cities and counties, there's some really shady stuff going on, a sure sign that these towns shouldn't have the power they do. Why do we think the states would be any better?
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In fact all government should be as local as possible so that people can do something about inept or corrupt behavior. You're on the right track.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

AlbqOwl said:
Then how do you account for all those who are succeeding? I agree that it is much tougher now. The current government has built in so much additional risk and expense for employers and has done almost nothing to help the economy recover, so much opportunity that would otherwise exist is currently sidelined. Nobody is going to risk almost everything they have to start up or expand a business when the odds of losing it all are so high.

But thinking that if the rich had less, then everybody else would have more is the most damning and stupid component of modern day American liberalism that exists. It is as absurd as thinking that if you take water from the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end, there will be more water in the shallow end. And thinking if they would just raise the minimum wage, the poor would be somehow richer, is almost as foolish. There will be anecdotal incidents of success in that regard yes, but overall you just make it that much harder for those willing to work for a living to have opportunity to do so. And the more people go on government assistance, the worse the economy will be, and the less incentive there is for the private sector to generate wealth which in turn provides less tax revenues for the government to use to provide assistance to those not working.
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The average income in the United States is ~$32,000 per year. If income in the United States were spread entirely equally, everyone would be making $225,000 per year. Americans are 4 times more productive since 1970, and wages have increased by about 1.6% since then. Debt among the working classes has exploded and continues to grow every year. All of the risk is on workers. Profits are privatized and risk is collectivized.

The people you're talking about, starting businesses, those are the working class. They're in the same pool as everyone else. That's not rich on the level that pulls the 32k to 225k. They shouldn't be facing the risk they do, but deregulation (primarily by Republicans) has allowed a few big corporations to enact colluding monopolies in many many industries. There is no room for small startup businesses.

There is nothing that a person can possibly do to deserve that much more reward than everyone else.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Paschendale said:
The average income in the United States is ~$32,000 per year. If income in the United States were spread entirely equally, everyone would be making $225,000 per year. Americans are 4 times more productive since 1970, and wages have increased by about 1.6% since then. Debt among the working classes has exploded and continues to grow every year. All of the risk is on workers. Profits are privatized and risk is collectivized.

The people you're talking about, starting businesses, those are the working class. They're in the same pool as everyone else. That's not rich on the level that pulls the 32k to 225k. They shouldn't be facing the risk they do, but deregulation (primarily by Republicans) has allowed a few big corporations to enact colluding monopolies in many many industries. There is no room for small startup businesses.

There is nothing that a person can possibly do to deserve that much more reward than everyone else.
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It wasn't that long ago that I retired from my own small start up business that provided services involving hundreds of other small start up businesses. And the reason that those small start up businesses can prosper is because they provide products and services needed by bigger businesses who provide products and services for still larger ones and so forth. Karl Marx believed that the wealth could be spread equitably and everybody would then live in peace. But such a concept has never worked in the history of the world because all humans have different aptitude, different ambitions, different callings, different abilities and some simply desire success enough to do what is necessary to achieve it while others are satisfied to just get by. The Founders gave us a nation in which every individual can aspire to reach his/her full potential and there were to be no artificial barriers to impede that - EXCEPT - that nobody could tread on anybody else's rights.

The fact is no matter how noble or righteous or liberal a concept is, you cannot achieve socioeconomic justice by taking away what others have ethically and legally earned and giving it to somebody else. You cannot hurt the rich without hurting the poor more. And you cannot enrich one segment of society by taking wealth from another.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

TeleKat said:
America is most certainly nationalistic. Have you not been paying attention?
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Yes, America is nationalistic, but I also added that fascism had a racial element to it as well in which racial superiority was codified into law.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Mr. Invisible said:
Yes, America is nationalistic, but I also added that fascism had a racial element to it as well in which racial superiority was codified into law.
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Fascism doesn't have to be racial for it to be fascism.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Soupnazi630 said:
Nothing to forgive. Smaller minds use such reactions to mask inadequacies.
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And Libertarians have some of the smallest minds around.
 
Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

Grant said:
In fact all government should be as local as possible so that people can do something about inept or corrupt behavior. You're on the right track.
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No, that's where we get morons pushing creationism in schools, racism, etc. Those never come from the federal government, they only come from local governments.
 
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