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Thread: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes[W:192]

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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Then how do you account for all those who are succeeding? I agree that it is much tougher now. The current government has built in so much additional risk and expense for employers and has done almost nothing to help the economy recover, so much opportunity that would otherwise exist is currently sidelined. Nobody is going to risk almost everything they have to start up or expand a business when the odds of losing it all are so high.

    But thinking that if the rich had less, then everybody else would have more is the most damning and stupid component of modern day American liberalism that exists. It is as absurd as thinking that if you take water from the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end, there will be more water in the shallow end. And thinking if they would just raise the minimum wage, the poor would be somehow richer, is almost as foolish. There will be anecdotal incidents of success in that regard yes, but overall you just make it that much harder for those willing to work for a living to have opportunity to do so. And the more people go on government assistance, the worse the economy will be, and the less incentive there is for the private sector to generate wealth which in turn provides less tax revenues for the government to use to provide assistance to those not working.
    Tell us why the economy did better when marginal income rates were much higher than today? Why would CEOs receive an average 250% increase in wages during the same period, salaried workers wages only rose 1%? Why are American corporations sitting on more cash than at any time in history? Could it be that the "socialist" President and his minions have actually done everything the "trickle down" theorists said would make the economy grow, yet for some reason only a small percentage of Americans have benefitted? The economy has grown, it's the trickle-down part that is looking more like the 1% are pissing down on most Americans.
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  2. #162
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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Tell us why the economy did better when marginal income rates were much higher than today? Why would CEOs receive an average 250% increase in wages during the same period, salaried workers wages only rose 1%? Why are American corporations sitting on more cash than at any time in history? Could it be that the "socialist" President and his minions have actually done everything the "trickle down" theorists said would make the economy grow, yet for some reason only a small percentage of Americans have benefitted? The economy has grown, it's the trickle-down part that is looking more like the 1% are pissing down on most Americans.
    The more the government meddles with any system, the more disparity, the more winners and losers, there will be, and the worse off some segments of society are going to be. There is an old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats from the smallest dinghy to the largest freighter. . . .BUT. . . .if the government is taking more out of the economy than is being returned to it. . . .as testified by the 17 trillion dollar debt that is growing by billions each and every day. . . .the tide will not rise. Instead it will fall.

    The fallacy of your logic is that if those CEO's were not getting all that money, then the guys at the lowest level would be getting it. That simply does not hold up in how the economy works. While there is corruption in all segments of society, including corporate America, the vast majority of those CEOs making those enormous salaries are doing so because they are helping those corporations to prosper. And a huge bunch of them are prospering overseas rather than here in America because our government is making it increasingly difficult to prosper here.

    Instead of worrying about what isn't trickling down, we should focus on helping the guys at the bottom prosper by providing more incentive for them to have opportunity, options, good paying jobs. Then the economy begins bubbling up from the bottom--the tide begins to rise and all boats are lifted again. We have a government who doesn't understand that. Who puts more and more requirements, regulation, and restrictions on the private sector making opportunity more scarce for more people. A higher minimum wage in this economy is just one more nail in the coffin the government has been building for the private sector.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The thing is that you can easily move to another of the 49 States. When the Feds screw up you have to leave the country. Not everyone everywhere has the same mindset, even in Washington.
    Sure, and when all of them are just as corrupt, what then?
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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The more the government meddles with any system, the more disparity, the more winners and losers, there will be, and the worse off some segments of society are going to be. There is an old saying that a rising tide lifts all boats from the smallest dinghy to the largest freighter. . . .BUT. . . .if the government is taking more out of the economy than is being returned to it. . . .as testified by the 17 trillion dollar debt that is growing by billions each and every day. . . .the tide will not rise. Instead it will fall.

    The fallacy of your logic is that if those CEO's were not getting all that money, then the guys at the lowest level would be getting it. That simply does not hold up in how the economy works. While there is corruption in all segments of society, including corporate America, the vast majority of those CEOs making those enormous salaries are doing so because they are helping those corporations to prosper. And a huge bunch of them are prospering overseas rather than here in America because our government is making it increasingly difficult to prosper here.

    Instead of worrying about what isn't trickling down, we should focus on helping the guys at the bottom prosper by providing more incentive for them to have opportunity, options, good paying jobs. Then the economy begins bubbling up from the bottom--the tide begins to rise and all boats are lifted again. We have a government who doesn't understand that. Who puts more and more requirements, regulation, and restrictions on the private sector making opportunity more scarce for more people. A higher minimum wage in this economy is just one more nail in the coffin the government has been building for the private sector.
    They don't understand CEO's.

    The can understand if LeBron James makes a lot of money, or Miley Cyrus, or David Letterman, or Madonna, but their mind can't wrap around the idea that CEO's often have sought after talents as well, and can therefore command a higher price for them. They think it's just some guy at a desk shuffling papers and should get paid the same as someone in the office cubicle. I doubt even Oprah would go for that.

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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Sure, and when all of them are just as corrupt, what then?
    Washington is one, The States are 50. The odds against that is 50-1.

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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Washington is one, The States are 50. The odds against that is 50-1.
    And the odds of it happening on a town-by-town basis are much higher. So why not push town power over state power? Of course, we know that in individual towns, cities and counties, there's some really shady stuff going on, a sure sign that these towns shouldn't have the power they do. Why do we think the states would be any better?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    Sure, its fun to quote stuff in order to make sarcastic points, but it doesnt add substance to the debate. And oligarchy is defined by decisions being made by a small number of entities, as with the ruling committee in China. The US is defined by federalism and representation, in which power is distributed to many different entities, and those entities chosen directly by individuals.

    That other entities try to influence those choices does not directly give them power. As usual, this debate is simply about liberals being upset that everyone doesnt agree with them, and that they have to COMPETE for power.
    I guess you didn't read the study cited in the OP.
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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Forgive me while I laugh hysterically.
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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    And the odds of it happening on a town-by-town basis are much higher. So why not push town power over state power? Of course, we know that in individual towns, cities and counties, there's some really shady stuff going on, a sure sign that these towns shouldn't have the power they do. Why do we think the states would be any better?
    In fact all government should be as local as possible so that people can do something about inept or corrupt behavior. You're on the right track.

  10. #170
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    Re: The US is an oligarchy, study concludes

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Then how do you account for all those who are succeeding? I agree that it is much tougher now. The current government has built in so much additional risk and expense for employers and has done almost nothing to help the economy recover, so much opportunity that would otherwise exist is currently sidelined. Nobody is going to risk almost everything they have to start up or expand a business when the odds of losing it all are so high.

    But thinking that if the rich had less, then everybody else would have more is the most damning and stupid component of modern day American liberalism that exists. It is as absurd as thinking that if you take water from the deep end of the pool and pour it into the shallow end, there will be more water in the shallow end. And thinking if they would just raise the minimum wage, the poor would be somehow richer, is almost as foolish. There will be anecdotal incidents of success in that regard yes, but overall you just make it that much harder for those willing to work for a living to have opportunity to do so. And the more people go on government assistance, the worse the economy will be, and the less incentive there is for the private sector to generate wealth which in turn provides less tax revenues for the government to use to provide assistance to those not working.
    The average income in the United States is ~$32,000 per year. If income in the United States were spread entirely equally, everyone would be making $225,000 per year. Americans are 4 times more productive since 1970, and wages have increased by about 1.6% since then. Debt among the working classes has exploded and continues to grow every year. All of the risk is on workers. Profits are privatized and risk is collectivized.

    The people you're talking about, starting businesses, those are the working class. They're in the same pool as everyone else. That's not rich on the level that pulls the 32k to 225k. They shouldn't be facing the risk they do, but deregulation (primarily by Republicans) has allowed a few big corporations to enact colluding monopolies in many many industries. There is no room for small startup businesses.

    There is nothing that a person can possibly do to deserve that much more reward than everyone else.
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