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Thread: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

  1. #81
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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Well and now that he's brought peace between Israel and the Palestinians, we should be fine. Oh, wait....

    The Onion said it best: Man Who Couldn

    "Man Who Couldn’t Defeat George W. Bush Attempting To Resolve Israel-Palestine Conflict"
    I know, righ....wait...theres 'peace' between Israel and Palestine?

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    In the first days of the crisis the Chief Rabbi declared for Russia and warned of a 'pogrom' from elements associated with Svoboda and the Right Sector. This was a salient part of Russia's initial media narrative on the crisis. Regardless there hasn't been any evidence of any particular political activity from Jewish communities in Eastern Ukraine and if they are being specifically targeted it begs serious explanation of anti-semitism isn't a motivator.

    The comparison to the Tatars is also a weak one considering the well known vociferous opposition to the Crimean annexation that permeated the Tatar community, it's political organs, and leadership. Not that it justifies any retaliation against them.

    Chief Rabbi of Ukraine Urged Jews to Flee Kiev After Attack on Students | Jewish & Israel News Algemeiner.com
    Are you being deliberate here? What does what happened in Kyiv have to do with what is happening now...

    Do I have to do an ELI5 to you?
    Kyiv is here <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Donestsk is here.
    Very far away. Very different people with very different goals.

    Violence for the sake of violence in one area.
    intimidation (under the promise) of violence to cause censorship to quell dissent and shut up loudmouths who don't have the 'correct' opinions.
    Right Sector here <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Pro-Russian separatists here
    Ukrainian nationalists <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Separatists
    How many ways do I have to keep on saying this.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm sorry your views aren't valid, only Rainmain05 understands and has a valid point of view. Better try next time. [/sarcasm]
    you can't speak for me buddy boy. I gave up on you because you clearly lost the capacity to absorb new information. Your brains' plasticity is all gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Another reality is that Jews have been, and are, historically discriminated against throughout Europe and the Middle East. Tartars not so much.

    Naturally red flags will go up when Jews rather than Tartars are mentioned.
    What does that have to do with anything I posted.

    Again. Snappy 1-2 liners to make up for comprehensive dialogue. It's like you're begging the world to treat you like children and give you a readers' digest view of the situation. Flash words to substitute for dialogue.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Are you being deliberate here? What does what happened in Kyiv have to do with what is happening now...

    Do I have to do an ELI5 to you?
    Kyiv is here <--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Donestsk is here.
    Very far away. Very different people with very different goals.

    Violence for the sake of violence in one area.
    intimidation (under the promise) of violence to cause censorship to quell dissent and shut up loudmouths who don't have the 'correct' opinions.
    Right Sector here <------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Pro-Russian separatists here
    Ukrainian nationalists <-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Separatists
    How many ways do I have to keep on saying this.
    What? Because your refutation of my point centered on alleging that the leadership of the Jewish community had sided with Kiev which would dispose the separatists to see them as a threat. My response was to demonstrate that in the initial days of the crisis this was patently untrue and since then the Jewish community has been largely apolitical due to fears of violence and their diminutive size. Hence undercutting the assumption (which you made) that they are being targeted for their insinuated political opposition as opposed to anti-semitism.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    What? Because your refutation of my point centered on alleging that the leadership of the Jewish community had sided with Kiev which would dispose the separatists to see them as a threat. My response was to demonstrate that in the initial days of the crisis this was patently untrue and since then the Jewish community has been largely apolitical due to fears of violence and their diminutive size. Hence undercutting the assumption (which you made) that they are being targeted for their insinuated political opposition as opposed to anti-semitism.
    That's 2 months ago. in february where the protests were at the all time high in Kyiv and other cities too and the berkrut was starting to shoot people with live ammo and kill protesters, around 100 ukranians died then for what they hoped would be a new start because they want a better country. It was the peak of the protests. That's where you saw on the internet those cool pictures with Fallout New Ukraine and all that.

    A lot has changed since then. Crimea happened. And people reacted, as you saw in the news reports I gave you, the jewish community reacted. It said things that didn't lay down well with pro-russian supporters and now, to avoid such a scenario from happening again, they're being intimidated to keep their mouths shut in eastern part of ukraine. And it's not an undercutting assumption. It's what it is.

    Again. The point of the campaign is to silence them. If people who go about distributing leaflets are also anti-semitic, that's not something you and I can know unless we take each adn every one of them and interview them. The point is not anti-semitism. The point is censorship.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    I think it might be time to send a stealth bomber over Moscow, just to keep up foreign relations ala Top Gun:

    top_gun_flips_the_bird2.jpg
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    you can't speak for me buddy boy. I gave up on you because you clearly lost the capacity to absorb new information. Your brains' plasticity is all gone.
    You have provided no information anyone would want to absorb. According to you, only your view and analysis is valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    What does that have to do with anything I posted.

    Again. Snappy 1-2 liners to make up for comprehensive dialogue. It's like you're begging the world to treat you like children and give you a readers' digest view of the situation. Flash words to substitute for dialogue.
    Thanks for demonstrating exactly what I claimed. Let me ask you, does anyone other than yourself have a valid view of this issue or is everyone else just wrong?
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    That's 2 months ago. in february where the protests were at the all time high in Kyiv and other cities too and the berkrut was starting to shoot people with live ammo and kill protesters, around 100 ukranians died then for what they hoped would be a new start because they want a better country. It was the peak of the protests. That's where you saw on the internet those cool pictures with Fallout New Ukraine and all that.

    A lot has changed since then. Crimea happened. And people reacted, as you saw in the news reports I gave you, the jewish community reacted. It said things that didn't lay down well with pro-russian supporters and now, to avoid such a scenario from happening again, they're being intimidated to keep their mouths shut in eastern part of ukraine. And it's not an undercutting assumption. It's what it is.

    Again. The point of the campaign is to silence them. If people who go about distributing leaflets are also anti-semitic, that's not something you and I can know unless we take each adn every one of them and interview them. The point is not anti-semitism. The point is censorship.
    Right and I presented evidence that many in the 'leadership' (if there is such a thing) did not make that alignment. Moreover the idea that this is a campaign to silence the Jewish communities of Eastern Ukraine doesn't make sense if they haven't expressed any dissent in the first place. Your links were from March and were an open letter by some Jewish organizations in Kiev to Putin. I fail to see how this should persuade us that what seems like open anti-semitism is actually a deeper kind of political repression.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    Right and I presented evidence that many in the 'leadership' (if there is such a thing) did not make that alignment. Moreover the idea that this is a campaign to silence the Jewish communities of Eastern Ukraine doesn't make sense if they haven't expressed any dissent in the first place. Your links were from March and were an open letter by some Jewish organizations in Kiev to Putin. I fail to see how this should persuade us that what seems like open anti-semitism is actually a deeper kind of political repression.
    They're being silenced to stop them from expressing dissent. After they start talking to the press and the media, the cat is out of the bag and it's all over. No point in silencing them then now is it? Ofc, they failed in keeping it all a secret but you can imagine that the people responsible for this intimidation campaign would have preferred to keep it all a secret, away from the press.
    I'm pretty sure I made this point repeteadly.

    Anyway. I'm basically exhausted from this discussion. We're spinning in ever widening circles and I'm not interested in digging up more bullets to bring to the firefight. It's half an hour to midnight here and tomorrow I have to start making preparations for Easter.

    There is a way to see which one of us has the correct theory but it'll take a lot of things to fall in place so that we can control for irregularities and it's really not the outcome I'd like to see.

    If eastern part of Ukraine goes to Russia and then we see a rise in anti-semitism in the region, then you'd be right, this is plain old anti-semitism at work making people hate the jews. Because by my logic, since this is mainly a campaign to censor dissent and not driven by anti-semitic policies, if the pro-russians get their way, there is no reason for them to bully or intimidate the jews because they won. Who cares what some stupid people who were on the "wrong" side of the fence believed in and now they have to live in Russia or go back to Ukraine or whatever. An ofc, the jewish communities musn't rock the boat above the current methods, like the articles that were published by rabbis or jewish leaders.

    So this is the scenario that could verify which one of us has the correct approach on the topic. But we would both regret it because I would be quite upset that eastern Ukraine went to Russia and you'd feel quite bad because you guessed right and now jewish people in the new western part of russia would be the target of abuse.
    Yeah...

    So lets not go there.

    Anyway, good night and happy easter.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Just came across this info less than 5 mins ago: Relax, Ukraine is Not Ordering Its Jews to Register | New Republic
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

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