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Thread: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

  1. #51
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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    ... did you read what I wrote?

    Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

    It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

    Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

    So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.




    You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
    Considering the long and thoroughly documented history of anti-semitism in Ukraine, especially in the eastern half of the country, on what basis do you assert that this crackdown is about silencing dissent? Ukraine has consistently been a topic of deep concern on this issue. The ECRI and other human rights groups have issued frequent reports on the matter, I'm looking for the report but I believe it was also cited as the most likely to have an anti-semetic pogrom in Europe.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    My personal analysis is the only correct one that one can draw from the news you and others posted.

    Look. Let me try and explain this in the easiest fashion possible.

    A word to describe strong sentiments against tartars would be anti-tartarism. Yes? Now if someone were to come with a news saying "anti-tartarist sentiments are on the rise in Crimea", you'd probably shrug your shoulders and say "Well, someone should do something about that because discrimination is bad". But if a news piece comes with the text "anti-semitic sentiments are on the rise in eastern ukraine", you reaction, conditioned by a number of factors would be "OMG, HOLOCAUST, HOLOCAUST, DO SOMETHING IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN". And that sort of response can be a justified one at times. However. This is not one of those times.

    This is one of those times when automatism is bad because it prevents you from understanding the reality of the situation.

    If I was in charge of getting rid of dissent in an area, what I'd do is that i'd start with the easiest targets to intimidate that may be the most likely people to cause trouble. And I look around in eastern ukraine and I see a handful of tartars... ok, lets send some people to make sure they shut up because they're afraid. And I see some jews and I know that jewish groups for over a month, have actively voiced pro-ukranian sentiments... so I say lets go shut them up too just in case they may be like the other jews. It's not about anti-semitism because i'm not targetting jews for the jewishness, I'm targetting them because they're the most likely candidates for causing dissenting statements. And I can't have that because it must seem that ALL people in eastern ukraine want to go to Russia or be independent or autonomous or something. But not ukranian. And people who voice a different opinion need to be shut up. It's a very simple case of censorship of the masses. And you start with shutting up the easiest people to shut up and work your way to the more stubborn ones or the ones who are harder to find. Like pro-ukranian ukrainians or pro-ukranian russians.

    Everyone who may issue anti-russian sentiments needs to be silenced. there are no special allowances or special measures taken against jews. It just seems that there because people use terms like anti-semitic attacks to automate a response in people. And while it may be beneficial to have people more concerned about what is happening in eastern ukraine and draw attention to the situation, it's doing it by provoking the wrong path. It's putting up the discrimination that jewish people are facing in eastern ukraine as above the discrimination that other people who may/are pro-ukrainian by using a word that has strong connotations. When in fact, it's not about ethnicity, it's about censorship. People who don't fall in line need to shut up and make it seem like all eastern ukraine wants to go to russia.

    It's distorting reality. And if we start distorting reality, how can we possbilty understand what is going on there? We can't. So lets be factual about things and then understand what is happening.



    No, you don't understand. I understand everything completely and I also understanding that automaton responses and distorting reality is not good in the long run. The holocaust has nothing to do with this.

    Read above and try and understand.
    You haven't even presented evidence that the Jewish communities in Donetsk are even anti-separatist. Everything I've read seems to indicate that they were apolitical, certainly not vocal. The flyers and attacks appear blatantly anti-semitic with little evidence that there is a deeper political motivation at play.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    My personal analysis is the only correct one that one can draw from the news you and others posted.
    You're personal analysis is bupkus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    No, you don't understand. I understand everything completely and I also understanding that automaton responses and distorting reality is not good in the long run. The holocaust has nothing to do with this.

    Read above and try and understand.
    Your posts so far show you cannot understand yourself out of a wet paper bag. History has everything to do with it especially when Jews are targeted. You seem to think you know but you don't really - on the subject matter or about human nature.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    I did read what you wrote. And you said that they weren't targeting Jews because of their ethnicity, but rather because of their dissent in pushing for Ukrainian sovereignty.

    You tell Ockham to read, but you yourself should read. You stated that

    I never painted that picture that eastern Europe was full of anti-semites, I stated specifically that there was anti-semitism coming from the Right Sector in the Ukraine.
    Ok, but this isn't the right sector doing this.
    The Right Sector are ukrainian nationalists and they have no presence in eastern ukraine where pro-russian activists have seized govt buildings and earlier today, have engaged in armed combat with ukrainian military troops. So Right Sector = pro-ukrainian. Not pro-russian. Not in eastern ukraine.

    This is what I am saying. You don't understand what is happening there because you're not informed on the situation and I try my best to explain to you. Read the posts I made and don't be an automaton.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    *sigh*. Guy, you go on ahead with your 'gun owners are the real victims' rant. You and I could argue on this all day long - you'd be sure I'm flat wrong, and I'd be sure you're flat wrong...sorta reminds me of religious debates I've had in the past.

    My brother was at least as conservative as you, and he was SO sure that "an armed society is a peaceful society". I mentioned Japan and asked him what he thought the homicide rate in Japan was, since guns are scarce as hen's teeth there. His reply was, "I don't know, at least as much as ours!" And the argument went downhill from there. The ignorance - willful ignorance - simply astounds.

    But you go on ahead with your rant - I won't reply further.
    Well unless you want the government to start on the path of a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc -- yes an armed society is necessary.

    Lets also not forget that 90% of the homicides that occur are the result of gang violence - democratic voters.

    IMO, progressives love murder - at least those in government - because they damn well know that the majority of these murders are committed by minority gangbangers and all the progressives have to do is point that out and SCREAM RACISM.... If someone calls that fact out it is "racism" and if someone ignores that minorities are killing themselves it's "racism".. In the end both sides of the coin have the same side. However that is a typical progressive tactic for any issue they attempt to argue.

    So, basically what we have is a bunch of minorities inflating statistics and progressives attack law abiding citizens....

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman123 View Post
    You haven't even presented evidence that the Jewish communities in Donetsk are even anti-separatist. Everything I've read seems to indicate that they were apolitical, certainly not vocal. The flyers and attacks appear blatantly anti-semitic with little evidence that there is a deeper political motivation at play.
    The jewish organizations in Ukraine have stated that they are pro-ukraine.
    Ukraine Jewish leaders to Putin: No anti-Semitism, please leave - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

    Ukraine Jewish leaders to Putin: No anti-Semitism, please leave
    Open letter signed by Jewish leaders says Russian claim of rising anti-Semitism in Ukraine 'does not correspond to the actual facts.'l
    Ukraine Jewish leaders criticize Putin in open letter | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

    And many more. So it doesn't matter if a personal jew in eastern ukraine is pro-russian. The people who claim to represent them stated that they're pro-ukrainian and anti-russian.

    I explained this in that post. You start with the most easiest groups to silence and then move to the ones who are harder to find.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    The people of the Ukraine should be VERY concerned about this as the similarities to the lead up to the Holodomor are inescapable. The only difference seems to be that this time distribution of gas and oil is the excuse instead of grain and other crops.

    memorial-to-holodomor-victims-23827804.jpg

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You're personal analysis is bupkus.

    Your posts so far show you cannot understand yourself out of a wet paper bag. History has everything to do with it especially when Jews are targeted. You seem to think you know but you don't really - on the subject matter or about human nature.
    ...
    Fine. Your opinion doesn't matter to begin with because you're completely uninformed. I have not seen any significant contributions from your part on the ukrainian crisis in the past 5 months since this thing started, I don't even know why I bother filling you in at this point in time. You're just another "score hawk" coming in this thread to make cheap comments and score a few likes from people who, like you, are unable or not willing to understand the situation in Ukraine right now and frankly, I can't be bothered with the likes of you and your pathetic indulgences in ignorance.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    ...
    Fine. Your opinion doesn't matter to begin with because you're completely uninformed.
    Your analysis is no better or more informed than anyone elses as it's based on opinion. You seem to want to ignore history, ignore the current level of anti-semitism. Do you live in Ukraine? Are you a member of the government of Ukraine? Do you speak for the people who sent these flyers to the jews in Ukraine? I'd venture to say NO on all 3 counts.

    You are purposefully ignoring history, ignoring how this looks and minimizing the obvious and strong emotional reaction that something like this has on people, by attempting to dismiss it as invalid. That type of behavior itself tells me you have an ulterior motive and are not here to set some record straight but want to manipulate the discussion for some purpose. What is that purpose and how do you benefit?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Your analysis is no better or more informed than anyone elses as it's based on opinion. You seem to want to ignore history, ignore the current level of anti-semitism. Do you live in Ukraine? Are you a member of the government of Ukraine? Do you speak for the people who sent these flyers to the jews in Ukraine? I'd venture to say NO on all 3 counts.

    You are purposefully ignoring history, ignoring how this looks and minimizing the obvious and strong emotional reaction that something like this has on people, by attempting to dismiss it as invalid. That type of behavior itself tells me you have an ulterior motive and are not here to set some record straight but want to manipulate the discussion for some purpose. What is that purpose and how do you benefit?
    ...

    I know everything there is to know about the ukrainian situation because I'm informed. I know it's hard for you to imagine but there are quite a few people in this forum who have been making important contributions in the numerous ukrainian-related threads over the past months. And I know every one of them and follow each thread with interest and that's why I know for certain that you're not. because I haven't noted any significant contributions from you just like I haven't seen many from other people like Cardinal who now come in and jump to conclusions faster than a rabbit jumps on a lady rabbit.

    Your opinion, while invaluable to you and the mentally rested, has 0 weight to it, weight that comes only from information and facts. And you got neither on your side.

    this is even shown in the fact that i made walls of text trying to explain the situation to you and the rest of the "gang" while you make snappy 3-4 phrases thinking that flash words can substitute for a conversation. Just throw the word anti-semitism out there and see what sticks. The big picture doesn't matter. Context doesn't matter. Just throw a flash word out there and think you know better. Above I posted links to the jewish organization in Ukraine and what they say:
    Ukraine Jewish leaders to Putin: No anti-Semitism, please leave - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

    Ukraine Jewish leaders criticize Putin in open letter | Jewish Telegraphic Agency

    And there are many more, stretching back at least 2 months. Feel free to read up.

    if they don't feel threatened by anti-semitism then who are you to know better, you self-entitled commentator? Hmm?

    You are your kind are the reason social and political dialogue is still in the mud and can never rise up.

    EDIT: The jews in eastern ukraine are being discriminated against not because they're jews, but because they hold the "wrong" opinions, mainly, pro-ukranian opinions. And so are all the people who hold the same opinions, only you can't use the flash-term anti-semitism to describe the discrimination enforced on them. If you don't understand this much, and can't understand this much, you should simply divorce yourself from any ukrainian topic because you're waaaay to far out the deep end to comprehend much. Stick to Kardashians. This is valid for anyone.
    Last edited by Rainman05; 04-17-14 at 04:42 PM.

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