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Thread: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

  1. #41
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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    So targeting Jewish people based on their ethnicity, whether or not its for larger political reasons, isn't anti-semitic?
    Given the history and 6 million jews murdered in the holocaust and the amount of anti-semetic views still in much of Europe, I can't blame the reaction to believe it would be anti-semetic.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The intent is no different than making firearm owners register here in the United States.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    So targeting Jewish people based on their ethnicity, whether or not its for larger political reasons, isn't anti-semitic?
    ... did you read what I wrote?

    Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

    It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

    Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

    So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Given the history and 6 million jews murdered in the holocaust and the amount of anti-semetic views still in much of Europe, I can't blame the reaction to believe it would be anti-semetic.
    You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Well, that's a headline you never want to see unless you're doing a history report on the lead-up to World War II.



    Ah, according to Israeli media. The order was probably given to everyone as some part of bizarre census and "Israeli media" are just making it out like Jews specifically were being targeted.



    Oh.



    Yes, Olga, you probably wouldn't, because that's how antisemitism rolls in Europe, West and East: something terrible is done to the Jews there, then a horror takes over at what has just been done and everyone learns their lesson for the next century (give or take a few years) until the whole thing happens all over again.

    Why Jews continue to remain especially in East Europe is a mystery to me.
    Jeez, I thought it was the people Western Ukraine that were the new Nazis. Guess not.
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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    ... did you read what I wrote?

    Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

    It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

    Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

    So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.




    You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
    Combined with other reports of antisemitic acts your personal analysis seems dubious to me, unless you have something else to substantiate it. What's alarming to me is that with the breakdown of a central order antisemitic acts are on the rise. That tells me something about what's lurking underneath that region's culture and attitudes.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 04-17-14 at 04:05 PM.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Well, that's a headline you never want to see unless you're doing a history report on the lead-up to World War II.



    Ah, according to Israeli media. The order was probably given to everyone as some part of bizarre census and "Israeli media" are just making it out like Jews specifically were being targeted.



    Oh.



    Yes, Olga, you probably wouldn't, because that's how antisemitism rolls in Europe, West and East: something terrible is done to the Jews there, then a horror takes over at what has just been done and everyone learns their lesson for the next century (give or take a few years) until the whole thing happens all over again.

    Why Jews continue to remain especially in East Europe is a mystery to me.
    Maybe it is because it is their country too. Why would you want them to leave?

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Maybe it is because it is their country too. Why would you want them to leave?
    As a Jew I would not feel comfortable living in a region that saw cycles of antisemitism. I'm speaking for myself.

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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    ... did you read what I wrote?

    Jews aren't in any way more special than tartars are. And tartars were targeted and intimidated before the referendum in Crimea, over 200k of them, and they were denied the chance to vote in the referendum too. Why? To crush dissent. To make sure that nobody voices an opposing point of view. to make it seem that all of crimea was in one mind.

    It's the same now in eastern ukraine with the regions that are very unstable and full of pro-russian activists. Only now, it's with jews because jewish groups have voiced pro-ukrainian comments and stances and hence, like the tartars in Crimea, they have to be silenced. The eastern part of Ukraine must be seen as being overwhelmingly pro-russian. So it has nothing to do with anti-semitism.

    Again, I repeat myself. I'm not saying that every single individual who is taking part in intimidating and silencing opposition voices has no anti-semitic sentiments. I'm saying that the principle reason for this action is to silence dissent. if the jewish groups in Ukraine had voiced pro-russian sentiments instead of pro-ukranian ones, the jews in eastern ukraine wouldn't have been targetted.

    So it's not anti-semitic motivation. It's censorship. there must be no dissent.




    You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
    I did read what you wrote. And you said that they weren't targeting Jews because of their ethnicity, but rather because of their dissent in pushing for Ukrainian sovereignty.


    You tell Ockham to read, but you yourself should read. You stated that

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    The people I referenced in my reply were painting the picture that eastern europe was full of rabid anti-semites, which is not true.
    I never painted that picture that eastern Europe was full of anti-semites, I stated specifically that there was anti-semitism coming from the Right Sector in the Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    This is quite disturbing. There are a number of reports collaborating the anti-Semitism from Right Sector in the Ukraine.
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

  9. #49
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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    You are completely missing the point. Or like others here, are incapable of understanding the point. Read above.
    And you missed my point which was and is, it doesn't matter what the actual reason may or may not be given the history and 6 million jews murdered during the holocaust as well as the still present anti-semitism in Europe. Do you understand yet?
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Combined with other reports of antisemitic acts your personal analysis seems dubious to me, unless you have something else to substantiate it.
    My personal analysis is the only correct one that one can draw from the news you and others posted.

    Look. Let me try and explain this in the easiest fashion possible.

    A word to describe strong sentiments against tartars would be anti-tartarism. Yes? Now if someone were to come with a news saying "anti-tartarist sentiments are on the rise in Crimea", you'd probably shrug your shoulders and say "Well, someone should do something about that because discrimination is bad". But if a news piece comes with the text "anti-semitic sentiments are on the rise in eastern ukraine", you reaction, conditioned by a number of factors would be "OMG, HOLOCAUST, HOLOCAUST, DO SOMETHING IT'S HAPPENING AGAIN". And that sort of response can be a justified one at times. However. This is not one of those times.

    This is one of those times when automatism is bad because it prevents you from understanding the reality of the situation.

    If I was in charge of getting rid of dissent in an area, what I'd do is that i'd start with the easiest targets to intimidate that may be the most likely people to cause trouble. And I look around in eastern ukraine and I see a handful of tartars... ok, lets send some people to make sure they shut up because they're afraid. And I see some jews and I know that jewish groups for over a month, have actively voiced pro-ukranian sentiments... so I say lets go shut them up too just in case they may be like the other jews. It's not about anti-semitism because i'm not targetting jews for the jewishness, I'm targetting them because they're the most likely candidates for causing dissenting statements. And I can't have that because it must seem that ALL people in eastern ukraine want to go to Russia or be independent or autonomous or something. But not ukranian. And people who voice a different opinion need to be shut up. It's a very simple case of censorship of the masses. And you start with shutting up the easiest people to shut up and work your way to the more stubborn ones or the ones who are harder to find. Like pro-ukranian ukrainians or pro-ukranian russians.

    Everyone who may issue anti-russian sentiments needs to be silenced. there are no special allowances or special measures taken against jews. It just seems that there because people use terms like anti-semitic attacks to automate a response in people. And while it may be beneficial to have people more concerned about what is happening in eastern ukraine and draw attention to the situation, it's doing it by provoking the wrong path. It's putting up the discrimination that jewish people are facing in eastern ukraine as above the discrimination that other people who may/are pro-ukrainian by using a word that has strong connotations. When in fact, it's not about ethnicity, it's about censorship. People who don't fall in line need to shut up and make it seem like all eastern ukraine wants to go to russia.

    It's distorting reality. And if we start distorting reality, how can we possbilty understand what is going on there? We can't. So lets be factual about things and then understand what is happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And you missed my point which was and is, it doesn't matter what the actual reason may or may not be given the history and 6 million jews murdered during the holocaust as well as the still present anti-semitism in Europe. Do you understand yet?
    No, you don't understand. I understand everything completely and I also understanding that automaton responses and distorting reality is not good in the long run. The holocaust has nothing to do with this.

    Read above and try and understand.

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