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Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL

ARGLEBARGLE

It is impossible to have a discussion around here without it turning into another "here's how liberals have wronged us today" cryfest.

What the **** does a largely Jewish university wrongly pulling a speaking gig from a prominent speaker on the issues of Islam have to do with "liberalism"? Oh yeah -- if it's bad, it's "liberal."
 
The usually gratuitously an nonsensically combative Clownery by sangha.

sangha: "There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution.."

Duhnother words, there IS such a thing as a "national right" for US Citizens/NATIONALS as elaborated by the Constitution.
In FACT, the right is Only "national." We don't carry it with us to Yemen.
Sangha Self-impeached with is Oxymoronic sentence.

Nothing funnier than a right winger who doubles down on their delusions

There is no such thing as a national right. Only individual rights.
mbig: "I did specifically criticize "Brandeis" and "Liberal Academia", NOT the USA re 'Free Speech', perhaps More Accurately, preventing the hearing of diversity of opinion on campus."

Preventing the hearing of any opinion, any opinion, on their private campus, is not a denial of free speech, it's a part of free speech.
 
LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL
ARGLEBARGLE
It is impossible to have a discussion around here without it turning into another "here's how liberals have wronged us today" cryfest.

What the **** does a largely Jewish university wrongly pulling a speaking gig from a prominent speaker on the issues of Islam have to do with "liberalism"? Oh yeah -- if it's bad, it's "liberal."
I am generally 'Liberal'/Progressive myself. (sangha wrong there too of course)
I am most oft 'accused' of that lean, though I've been bashed by both sides.
But in this case, it's quite fair and quite useful in describing what happened at Brandeis.
Denying venue or shouting down Islam critics/other speakers is Routine at Universities.
(again eohrnberger on pg 1)

So is Judaism relevant here
I am Jewish (culturally etc) - if an Atheist.
That's why I'm even more offended by what happened.
A 'Jewish' university can't even have a speaker criticize Islam despite the fact the Jewish State is in a battle with Islamic countries and the butt of their bashing at home and at the UN etc.
And FYI, Jews are app 80/20 liberal.
While of course, there is nothing as ILLiberal as Islam/Islamism.

Hope you see the point.
I don't like the knee-jerk partisanship here either but this was absolutely appropriate.
 
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Right, which, overall, in my opinion, is grandstanding nonsense.
Your opinion is not based on facts.

It's the same "boogeyman" argument that the Bush and Obama administrations made, and are making, regarding the terror that is Islam.

If the sandal fits.
It got Ali asylum (illegally), a (mostly) free western education, and a position in government that she had no legal right to hold.
And for this she shouldn't speak out for the liberation of Muslim women?

It got us Americans the DHS, the NSA being turned inward, extrajudicial killings of American citizens, and on, and on, and on...
Yes, the response has been wrong in many areas but the fact is that many thousands of Islamist terrorists were also killed.

If you know how to capitalize on the "Islam is evil" trend that preys on the fears, ignorance, and gullibility of people it can certainly be lucrative.
Some parts of Islam are evil, much of it ignorant, but if Muslims won't speak of this evil in their midst, others must.
 
Calling Islam a destructive, nihilistic cult of death is freedom of speech and not such a great exaggeration as far as women, her main issue, is concerned.
Actually, it is a massive exaggeration. For one "nihilistic" plainly does not apply and use of the term betrays either an ignorance of the term's meaning or a dishonest criticism. The "cult of death" part is more judging Islam for the actions of some of its adherents, rather than the actual tenets of the faith. It does not center on death particularly more than any other religion and it is just one of many faiths where war and capital punishment are discussed as acceptable under the right circumstances. Much of Shariah law is not actually derived from the Quran, but the hadith, which are subject to interpretation with their veracity often questioned. It is quite probable that certain Islamic scholars are simply reading into a given text what they want as people are wont to do with any text.
I see we have another example of right wingers demonstrating their failure to understand the First Amendment, and how it doesn't limit private entities.
While I would agree that her free speech was not violated in this case, it is an excessively common mistake for "liberals" to treat freedom of speech as though it is something that can only be threatened by the government based on the fact that the First Amendment only mentions Congress. This arises from ignorance of the constitution and its purpose. No part of the constitution limits the actions of private citizens because it was created as a means of limiting government. Everyone already agreed that government was far from the only entity that could violate a person's rights as government's role was perceived as being to protect the rights of individuals from being violated by other individuals. Creating a constitution was about preventing the government from becoming an entity that would violate these rights itself. The reason her freedom of speech was not threatened in this case is because this was about giving her an honor, basically an award. By no means is refusing to bestow an honor upon someone due to controversial comments or actions the same as threatening someone's freedom of speech. A person's right to freedom of speech does not require anyone to approve of or honor that speech. Giving her an honorary degree could been seen as approving or honoring her statements and they were not in any way obligated to do that.
 
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Actually, it is a massive exaggeration. For one "nihilistic" plainly does not apply and use of the term betrays either an ignorance of the term's meaning or a dishonest criticism. The "cult of death" part is more judging Islam for the actions of some of its adherents, rather than the actual tenets of the faith. It does not center on death particularly more than any other religion and it is just one of many faiths where war and capital punishment are discussed as acceptable under the right circumstances. Much of Shariah law is not actually derived from the Quran, but the hadith, which are subject to interpretation with their veracity often questioned. It is quite probable that certain Islamic scholars are simply reading into a given text what they want as people are wont to do with any text.

There is only one religion commonly associated with terrorism and the serious abuse of women and that is Islam.
 
LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL

ARGLEBARGLE

It is impossible to have a discussion around here without it turning into another "here's how liberals have wronged us today" cryfest.

What the **** does a largely Jewish university wrongly pulling a speaking gig from a prominent speaker on the issues of Islam have to do with "liberalism"? Oh yeah -- if it's bad, it's "liberal."

"Liberals" are showing once again their true feelings about genuine women's liberation the same way they claim to care about Blacks in America. When Muslim women genuinely are freed, perhaps in a hundred years or so, it will be 'liberals' who will once again try to take the credit.
 
"Liberals" are showing once again their true feelings about genuine women's liberation the same way they claim to care about Blacks in America. When Muslim women genuinely are freed, perhaps in a hundred years or so, it will be 'liberals' who will once again try to take the credit.

This is gobbledygook.

"True feelings about genuine women's liberation"? What the **** are you talking about? I haven't seen anyone here who's happy about Brandeis' move here. About the only arguments I've seen here outside of the usual liberal-bashing that goes with pretty much any thread these days is that either a. it's not a big issue, which it's not; or b. the idea that this is somehow an indictment of "liberals" is weapons-grade stupid.

I understand in Grantland, everything liberals do is bad and everything bad that happens is the fault of liberals, but at least try to wrap your head around the idea that some things simply don't fit neatly into your completely one-sided left-right dichotomy.
 
This is gobbledygook.

"True feelings about genuine women's liberation"? What the **** are you talking about? I haven't seen anyone here who's happy about Brandeis' move here. About the only arguments I've seen here outside of the usual liberal-bashing that goes with pretty much any thread these days is that either a. it's not a big issue, which it's not; or b. the idea that this is somehow an indictment of "liberals" is weapons-grade stupid.

I understand in Grantland, everything liberals do is bad and everything bad that happens is the fault of liberals, but at least try to wrap your head around the idea that some things simply don't fit neatly into your completely one-sided left-right dichotomy.

Do you want to see Muslim women freed or don't you? Do you want to see Hirsi Ali speak out against the injustices many Muslim women suffer or not? Do you feel that Brandeis inviting her and reneging was wrong? Do you know that by doing that they also removed whatever chance she had to speak? Did you know also that Islamic pressure is also disallowing Universities from showing her film Honor Diaries?

Do you genuinely feel that 'liberals' have been in the forefront in the rights for Muslim women, or do you feel that 'conservatives' have spoken out more in this regard?
 
You're digging yourself into an even bigger hole, and it's hilarious how you don't even have a clue

There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution, and it includes Brandeis' right to *not* allow itself to be used as a forum for whomever it chooses.

Your belief that this has anything to do with free speech is just another demonstration of how many right wingers don't understand the most basic things about rights

Yes, Liberals understand that there are limits on free speech and if there is enough pressure applied then these rights can be rightfully terminated.
 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of my modern day heros. Having been raised in Islam, she knows exactly what it really is and what it teaches and she is outspoken because of this. She is an amazing woman. It does not matter really, that she is denied a voice at this particular venue...the publicity from this story will most likely introduce more people to her story, her life and what she stands for. Anyone, anywhere in the world who has the courage of their convictions and stands up to Islam to tell the Western world that they are being duped and Islam really is dangerous, will be persecuted, called a bigot and, in some cases assassinated. As an ex-Muslim she is under a death sentence anyway for having the courage to leave Islam, let alone anything else she says. It is always interesting to read/listen to ex-Muslims...the Islam they grew up in is, of course, different to the watered-down "Islam is a religion of peace" and "there are degrees of Islam and 'extremists' don't represent Islam" nonsense the Western world is being fed.

Hopefully, I will be dead and buried before Islam emerges as the dominant force in the world (if I am not, it is the one thing that would make me commit suicide, having to live under Islam), but I have a daughter and 4 grand daughters and they may still be alive. My heart is sick from worry as to the world they may one day have to live in, a world of Islam. Sure, I am most likely going to be called an ignorant bigot, but I really don't care. The only satisfaction I will have is knowing that Westerners who just do not have a clue about Islam will be the first to be annihilated, all the time protesting that "it isn't right", and "what did I do, I supported you".
 
Do you want to see Muslim women freed or don't you?

Of course I do.

Do you want to see Hirsi Ali speak out against the injustices many Muslim women suffer or not?

I HAVE seen Hirsi Ali speak out; she's been on several shows I have seen.

Do you feel that Brandeis inviting her and reneging was wrong?

Frankly, I'd tell CAIR to stick it where the sun don't shine, but that's just me. Do I agree with Brandeis reneging? No. Did they have the right to? Yes. Is Brandeis reneging some indictment of "liberals"? No.

Do you know that by doing that they also removed whatever chance she had to speak?

She's forbidden from speaking anywhere else, ever?

Did you know also that Islamic pressure is also disallowing Universities from showing her film Honor Diaries?

No, "Islamic pressure" isn't disallowing jack nuts. People need to stop caving in every time someone says boo.

Do you genuinely feel that 'liberals' have been in the forefront in the rights for Muslim women, or do you feel that 'conservatives' have spoken out more in this regard?

I don't think that ANY appreciable amount of Americans, liberal or conservative, have been "in the forefront in the rights for Muslim women." It's one of those problems with the world that way, way too many people are all too willing to pretend doesn't exist.

My objection to this thread is solely how the topic was plunked here and it turned into another excuse to bash "liberals." Which seems to be par for the course in pretty much every thread these days.
 
Of course I do.
Then you will start speaking out against the treatement of Muslim women and begin pointing out the atrocities against them?
I HAVE seen Hirsi Ali speak out; she's been on several shows I have seen.
Because Brandeis reneged she lost the opportunity to speak there.
Frankly, I'd tell CAIR to stick it where the sun don't shine, but that's just me
. There is nothing stopping you from doing just that and no, it's not just you..
Do I agree with Brandeis reneging? No. Did they have the right to? Yes. Is Brandeis reneging some indictment of "liberals"? No.

Have a go at reading these letters from Brandeis Alumni

An Open Letter to Brandeis President Frederick Lawrence | FrontPage Magazine


She's forbidden from speaking anywhere else, ever?
Don't be silly.
No, "Islamic pressure" isn't disallowing jack nuts. People need to stop caving in every time someone says boo.
In fact thats just what it was.
I don't think that ANY appreciable amount of Americans, liberal or conservative, have been "in the forefront in the rights for Muslim women." It's one of those problems with the world that way, way too many people are all too willing to pretend doesn't exist.
Agreed.
My objection to this thread is solely how the topic was plunked here and it turned into another excuse to bash "liberals." Which seems to be par for the course in pretty much every thread these days.
You think conservatives don't get bashed? Perhaps you can just learn to take criticism rather than constantly complaining about it.
 
Then you will start speaking out against the treatement of Muslim women and begin pointing out the atrocities against them?

Who's to say I haven't? I generally don't discuss it here, since I think we can all agree it's bad and this is generally more of an informed community.
 
Who's to say I haven't? I generally don't discuss it here, since I think we can all agree it's bad and this is generally more of an informed community.
Right. You use another forum to express your strong feelings for human rights.
 
Right. You use another forum to express your strong feelings for human rights.

1. When have I spoken out here against human rights?

2. Who said anything about a forum?

What, exactly, is your point? That because I'm not spamming tales of women being mistreated in the Muslim world, that I somehow approve of it? Or what? How much luggage, exactly, should I pack for this guilt trip?
 
Another on Target piece by the courageous one.

Here's What I Would Have Said at Brandeis

We need to make our universities temples not of dogmatic orthodoxy, but of truly critical thinking.
By AYAAN HIRSI ALI
April 10, 2014
Wall Street Journal (+Video)
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304512504579493410287663906

On Tuesday, after protests by students, faculty and outside groups, Brandeis University revoked its invitation to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to receive an honorary degree at its commencement ceremonies in May. The protesters accused Ms. Hirsi Ali, an advocate for the rights of women and girls, of being "Islamophobic." Here is an abridged version of the remarks she planned to deliver.

One year ago, the city and suburbs of Boston were still in mourning.....
[..........] You deserve better memories than 9/11 and the Boston Marathon bombing. And you are not the only ones. In Syria, at least 120,000 people have been killed, not simply in battle, but in wholesale massacres, in a civil war that is increasingly waged across a sectarian divide. Violence is escalating in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Libya, in Egypt. And far more than was the case when you were born, organized violence in the world today is disproportionately concentrated in the Muslim world.

Another striking feature of the countries I have just named, and of the Middle East generally, is that violence against women is also increasing. In Saudi Arabia, there has been a noticeable rise in the practice of female genital mutilation. In Egypt, 99% of women report being sexually harassed and up to 80 sexual assaults occur in a single day. - Especially troubling is the way the status of women as second-class citizens is being cemented in legislation. In Iraq, a law is being proposed that lowers to 9 the legal age at which a girl can be forced into marriage. That same law would give a husband the right to deny his wife permission to leave the house.

Sadly, the list could go on [.....]
Two decades ago, not even the bleakest pessimist would have anticipated all that has gone wrong in the part of world where I grew up. After so many victories for feminism in the West, no one would have predicted that women's basic human rights would actually be reduced in so many countries as the 20th century gave way to the 21st. - Today, however, I am going to predict a better future, because I believe that the pendulum has swung almost as far as it possibly can in the wrong direction.
[..........]
The connection between violence, particularly violence against women, and Islam is too clear to be ignored.
We do no favors to students, faculty, nonbelievers and people of faith when we shut our eyes to this link, when we excuse rather than reflect.
So I ask: Is the concept of Holy War compatible with our ideal of religious toleration? Is it blasphemy—punishable by death—to question the applicability of certain seventh-century doctrines to our own era? Both Christianity and Judaism have had their eras of reform. I would argue that the time has come for a Muslim Reformation.

Is such an argument inadmissible? It surely should not be at a university that was founded in the wake of the Holocaust, at a time when many American universities still imposed quotas on Jews.
The motto of Brandeis University is "Truth even unto its innermost parts." That is My motto too. For it is only through truth, unsparing truth, that your generation can hope to do better than mine in the struggle for peace, freedom and equality of the sexes.
Ms. Hirsi Ali is the author of "Nomad: My Journey from Islam to America" (Free Press, 2010).
She is a fellow at the Belfer Center of Harvard's Kennedy School and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.
 
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Another on Target piece by the courageous one.

Here's What I Would Have Said at Brandeis

We need to make our universities temples not of dogmatic orthodoxy, but of truly critical thinking.
By AYAAN HIRSI ALI
April 10, 2014
Wall Street Journal (+Video)
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Here's What I Would Have Said at Brandeis - WSJ.com

On Tuesday, after protests by students, faculty and outside groups, Brandeis University revoked its invitation to Ayaan Hirsi Ali to receive an honorary degree at its commencement ceremonies in May. The protesters accused Ms. Hirsi Ali, an advocate for the rights of women and girls, of being "Islamophobic." Here is an abridged version of the remarks she planned to deliver.


Ms. Hirsi Ali is the author of "Nomad: My Journey from Islam to America" (Free Press, 2010).
She is a fellow at the Belfer Center of Harvard's Kennedy School and a visiting fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

Would we prefer our daughters to grow up with the strength, courage and intelligence of Hirsi Ali or the cowardice demonstrated by the President and much of the faculty at Brandeis University?
 
Would we prefer our daughters to grow up with the strength, courage and intelligence of Hirsi Ali or the cowardice demonstrated by the President and much of the faculty at Brandeis University?

What in the flying **** does the President have to do with this story? Just another cheap, hackish partisan shot. Nothing new.
 
There is only one religion commonly associated with terrorism and the serious abuse of women and that is Islam.

Are you sure you want to stick by that statement?
 
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is one of my modern day heros.
I would suggest having a better criteria, notice how many times the words Jew/antisemitism and Israel pop up in the first page?
its no surprise, almost all of those people who make a career out of being specifically antimuslim tend to be on a payroll.

She is a liar who got deported from her country because of her lies that caught up with her.

Having been raised in Islam, she knows exactly what it really is and what it teaches and she is outspoken because of this. She is an amazing woman. It does not matter really, that she is denied a voice at this particular venue

You should at least read the op if you are not going to read the source, they decided not to give her an honorary degree, they didn't ban her from ever speaking at the university
The university said it would welcome Ali “to join us on campus in the future to engage in a dialogue about these important issues.”

"Islam is a religion of peace" and "there are degrees of Islam and 'extremists' don't represent Islam" nonsense the Western world is being fed.

Islam's main source is basically a plagiarized short version of the bible. Anything that you can come up with that is horrible from Islamic teaching can probably be matched to something from the bible, I don't see why you do not therefor allow for Muslims to be hypocrites about their religions like you allow Christians and Jews to be. American Muslims are less likely to be violent or support violence against civilians than the average American Christian or Jewish person, If they want to believe that their religion is one of peace they should be entitled to, they are hardly the only hypocrites when it comes to their religion, its no different than alll the people who claim that the Westboro Baptist Church is not a true representative of Christianity.

but I really don't care. The only satisfaction I will have is knowing that Westerners who just do not have a clue about Islam will be the first to be annihilated, all the time protesting that "it isn't right", and "what did I do, I supported you".

Muslims are not taking over the world, you can relax. ;)
 
What in the flying **** does the President have to do with this story? Just another cheap, hackish partisan shot. Nothing new.

We are talking on Brandeis and the President of Brandeis. It has nothing to do with Obama.
 
We are talking on Brandeis and the President of Brandeis. It has nothing to do with Obama.

Ah, I misunderstood what was meant by "President." My b.
 
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