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Thread: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

  1. #21
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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    Then again, Your "NY/NJ" area experience with Islam (and Less than .1% of it's adherents) might not be as representative as hers!
    Doncha think?
    Umm, I said as much didn't I?

    So, yeah, I thought it first.

    It's certainly Tiny compared to the population of Muslims in just the countries you mention/Concede above.
    It certainly is.

    Your post is what we call the 'anecdote fallacy', be it witting or unwitting.
    My personal experience is anecdotal, sure.

    But I just used my anecdotal experience to introduce a fact, not as the sole substantiation of that fact.

    According to Pew (et al, of course) there were about 2 million Muslims living in the U.S. in 2007.

    How many female stonings were there in 2007 attributed to Muslims?

    How many "honor killings"?

    How much "destructive, nihilistic cult of death" type behavior of any sort can be attributed to Muslims in America during 2007?

    How about in the West more generally?

    The answer, if you're honest about it, is not a whole heck of a lot.

    Because Muslims worldwide, Favor (with mostly Large majorities down to Significant minorities), things like Sharia law, specifically including it's most Barbaric punishments. (Pew et al)
    Sharia law is not the handbook on how to run a "destructive, nihilistic cult of death". It's just a code of law based on religious beliefs. You'd think that it was somehow altogether different than our own laws being based, loosely, on Christian religious tradition. There are plenty of nations that incorporate Sharia into their judicial systems (in whole or in part) and are generally considered perfectly nice, modern, friendly countries. Sharia law might kinda cramp your style a little bit if you're of a more "progressive" mindset, as almost all of us in the West are these days, but it really isn't a great deal different than how things were in puritanical America 100 years ago. Certain behavior is "illegal" because it is seen as "immoral" (homosexuality, abortion, sex out of wedlock, etc...) but it isn't like people in Singapore or Qatar are being beheaded over these things (no more than homosexuals in America, circa 1940, were regularly being beheaded by the state as a result of being caught breaking "sodomy" laws).

    Ayaan has also lived in Europe, being a former Dutch parliament member.
    I'm aware. A peaceful and secular Western country. Interesting, but largely irrelevant. Unless we talk about her lies, and the citizenship controversy, and how her unethical and inexcusable behavior brought down the PM's Cabinet. But yeah, otherwise irrelevant.

    Her opinions Not limited to just Islam's treatment of women, but it's overall character.
    Right, which, overall, in my opinion, is grandstanding nonsense.

    It's the same "boogeyman" argument that the Bush and Obama administrations made, and are making, regarding the terror that is Islam.

    It got Ali asylum (illegally), a (mostly) free western education, and a position in government that she had no legal right to hold.

    It got us Americans the DHS, the NSA being turned inward, extrajudicial killings of American citizens, and on, and on, and on...

    If you know how to capitalize on the "Islam is evil" trend that preys on the fears, ignorance, and gullibility of people it can certainly be lucrative.
    “Now it is not good for the Christian’s health to hustle the Aryan brown,
    For the Christian riles, and the Aryan smiles and he weareth the Christian down;
    And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased,
    And the epitaph drear: “A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East.”

  2. #22
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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    Umm, I said as much didn't I?
    So, yeah, I thought it first.
    It certainly is.
    My personal experience is anecdotal, sure.
    But I just used my anecdotal experience to introduce a fact, not as the sole substantiation of that fact.

    According to Pew (et al, of course) there were about 2 million Muslims living in the U.S. in 2007.
    How many female stonings were there in 2007 attributed to Muslims?
    How many "honor killings"?
    [b]How much "destructive, nihilistic cult of death" type behavior of any sort can be attributed to Muslims in America during 2007?
    How about in the West more generally?
    The answer, if you're honest about it, is not a whole heck of a lot.
    So you admit your experience in the "NY/NJ" area, now USA overall, even West overall, is NOT representative. Yet now, and definitely aware you are Misleading, ask the strawman 'how many' in the America/West' anyway.
    Again, How many Muslims of the 1.5 Billion live in the US/EU?
    1%-2% Restricted by our laws.
    Ooops.


    Quote Originally Posted by soot
    Sharia law is not the handbook on how to run a "destructive, nihilistic cult of death". It's just a code of law based on religious beliefs. You'd think that it was somehow altogether different than our own laws being based, loosely, on Christian religious tradition. There are plenty of nations that incorporate Sharia into their judicial systems (in whole or in part) and are generally considered perfectly nice, modern, friendly countries. Sharia law might kinda cramp your style a little bit if you're of a more "progressive" mindset, as almost all of us in the West are these days, but it really isn't a great deal different than how things were in puritanical America 100 years ago. Certain behavior is "illegal" because it is seen as "immoral" (homosexuality, abortion, sex out of wedlock, etc...) but it isn't like people in Singapore or Qatar are being beheaded over these things (no more than homosexuals in America, circa 1940, were regularly being beheaded by the state as a result of being caught breaking "sodomy" laws).
    And again, Sharia, is just another example of Islam's general intolerance. Islam is not just about Women, Not just about Sharia.

    What IS happening (in further demo of the "nihilistic death cult" beyond killing apostates, adulterers, gays, etc), Is the Persecution, Cleansing, and Killing of Non-Muslims and Muslims of other sects WORLDWIDE.
    Not just by 'terror' groups, but my Mainstream Muslims and their Governments from Mauritania to Mindinao.

    Many people are persecuted, cleansed, or die Every day in the Name of Islam.

    BTW, Singapore is Not a Muslim country.
    But - and thx for mentioning it - it's former leader, Lee Kuan Yew, had plenty to say on Muslim Intolerance and lack of willingness to integrate there.
    (links available)


    Quote Originally Posted by soot

    It's the same "boogeyman" argument that the Bush and Obama administrations made, and are making, regarding the terror that is Islam.
    ....
    If you know how to capitalize on the "Islam is evil" trend that preys on the fears, ignorance, and gullibility of people it can certainly be lucrative.
    Bush was an apologist for Islam, as are many in government necessarily.
    They can't tell the truth, that these 'Extremist' muslims are in fact not perverting the religion at all.
    ie, for many years, bin Laden was the most popular man in the Muslim world.
    Unlike in Christianity or Judaism, Literalism is Mainstream in Islam.

    Practising Muslim reformer Irshad Manji:

    ".....The trouble with Islam today is that Literalism is Mainstream.
    Even Moderate Muslims take the Koran as the final word of God: unfiltered, unchanged and Unchangeable.
    This Supremacy complex inhibits us from asking hard questions about what happens when faith becomes dogma.
    Such a path can lead only to a dead end of more Violence...."

    The Australian: Irshad Manji: Denial is scourge of Islam [August 23, 2005]


    And like Hirsi Ali, Manji lives behind bullet-proof glass... even in Canada.
    Last edited by mbig; 04-11-14 at 06:39 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    For you and sangha...
    I did specifically criticize "Brandeis" and "Liberal Academia", NOT the USA re 'Free Speech', perhaps more accurately, preventing the hearing of diversity of opinion on campus.
    Partially outlined/documented by eohrnberger his post on the last page.

    I see few are willing to take up the Actual issue raised, instead going for the Strawman about the National right of such.
    You're digging yourself into an even bigger hole, and it's hilarious how you don't even have a clue

    There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution, and it includes Brandeis' right to *not* allow itself to be used as a forum for whomever it chooses.

    Your belief that this has anything to do with free speech is just another demonstration of how many right wingers don't understand the most basic things about rights
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Just wondering where the outrage is from groups like National Organization of Women? If this woman had claimed to have been abused by Baptists she would already be the poster child for the feminist left.
    And I see another right wing fighter for the First Amendment who thinks it means that some people should be compelled to speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig
    For you and sangha...

    I did specifically criticize "Brandeis" and "Liberal Academia", NOT the USA re 'Free Speech', perhaps more accurately, preventing the hearing of diversity of opinion on campus.
    Partially outlined/documented by eohrnberger his post on the last page.

    I see few are willing to take up the Actual issue raised, instead going for the Strawman about the National right of such.
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You're digging yourself into an even bigger hole, and it's hilarious how you don't even have a clue

    There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution, and it includes Brandeis' right to *not* allow itself to be used as a forum for whomever it chooses.

    Your belief that this has anything to do with free speech is just another demonstration of how many right wingers don't understand the most basic things about rights
    The usually gratuitously an nonsensically combative Clownery by sangha.

    sangha: "There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution.."

    Duhnother words, there IS such a thing as a "national right" for US Citizens/NATIONALS as elaborated by the Constitution.
    In FACT, the right is Only "national." We don't carry it with us to Yemen.
    Sangha Self-impeached with is Oxymoronic sentence.

    There are NO such thing as "natural" or "god given" or Any other rights that can't be enforced by the Body that elaborates them. In this case, the/our NATIONAL govt/constitution.

    And as you can see above, I clarified to be more precise as well. It was anything BUT "a bigger hole"
    Again:
    mbig: "I did specifically criticize "Brandeis" and "Liberal Academia", NOT the USA re 'Free Speech', perhaps More Accurately, preventing the hearing of diversity of opinion on campus."

    That, and again Contrary to your Obtuse take, was anything But a "bigger hole": that was taking any 'Right' OUT of it and Clarifying it to [preventing] "diversity of opinion" Instead.

    What a Goofy Wrong-headed take from the board's most persistent Wrong Last-worder.
    More nonsensical BS to inevitably follow.
    May answer only to hold his goofy posts up for more Ridicule, may not bother.
    Last edited by mbig; 04-11-14 at 09:07 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL

    ARGLEBARGLE

    It is impossible to have a discussion around here without it turning into another "here's how liberals have wronged us today" cryfest.

    What the **** does a largely Jewish university wrongly pulling a speaking gig from a prominent speaker on the issues of Islam have to do with "liberalism"? Oh yeah -- if it's bad, it's "liberal."
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by mbig View Post
    The usually gratuitously an nonsensically combative Clownery by sangha.

    sangha: "There is no such thing as a "national right". Free speech is right that every individual has under our constitution.."

    Duhnother words, there IS such a thing as a "national right" for US Citizens/NATIONALS as elaborated by the Constitution.
    In FACT, the right is Only "national." We don't carry it with us to Yemen.
    Sangha Self-impeached with is Oxymoronic sentence.
    Nothing funnier than a right winger who doubles down on their delusions

    There is no such thing as a national right. Only individual rights.
    mbig: "I did specifically criticize "Brandeis" and "Liberal Academia", NOT the USA re 'Free Speech', perhaps More Accurately, preventing the hearing of diversity of opinion on campus."
    Preventing the hearing of any opinion, any opinion, on their private campus, is not a denial of free speech, it's a part of free speech.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  8. #28
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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    LIBERAL LIBERAL LIBERAL
    ARGLEBARGLE
    It is impossible to have a discussion around here without it turning into another "here's how liberals have wronged us today" cryfest.

    What the **** does a largely Jewish university wrongly pulling a speaking gig from a prominent speaker on the issues of Islam have to do with "liberalism"? Oh yeah -- if it's bad, it's "liberal."
    I am generally 'Liberal'/Progressive myself. (sangha wrong there too of course)
    I am most oft 'accused' of that lean, though I've been bashed by both sides.
    But in this case, it's quite fair and quite useful in describing what happened at Brandeis.
    Denying venue or shouting down Islam critics/other speakers is Routine at Universities.
    (again eohrnberger on pg 1)

    So is Judaism relevant here
    I am Jewish (culturally etc) - if an Atheist.
    That's why I'm even more offended by what happened.
    A 'Jewish' university can't even have a speaker criticize Islam despite the fact the Jewish State is in a battle with Islamic countries and the butt of their bashing at home and at the UN etc.
    And FYI, Jews are app 80/20 liberal.
    While of course, there is nothing as ILLiberal as Islam/Islamism.

    Hope you see the point.
    I don't like the knee-jerk partisanship here either but this was absolutely appropriate.
    Last edited by mbig; 04-11-14 at 09:41 PM.
    I'm personally sick of not being able to dunk a basketball because of racism.
    anon

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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by soot View Post
    Right, which, overall, in my opinion, is grandstanding nonsense.
    Your opinion is not based on facts.

    It's the same "boogeyman" argument that the Bush and Obama administrations made, and are making, regarding the terror that is Islam.
    If the sandal fits.
    It got Ali asylum (illegally), a (mostly) free western education, and a position in government that she had no legal right to hold.
    And for this she shouldn't speak out for the liberation of Muslim women?

    It got us Americans the DHS, the NSA being turned inward, extrajudicial killings of American citizens, and on, and on, and on...
    Yes, the response has been wrong in many areas but the fact is that many thousands of Islamist terrorists were also killed.

    If you know how to capitalize on the "Islam is evil" trend that preys on the fears, ignorance, and gullibility of people it can certainly be lucrative.
    Some parts of Islam are evil, much of it ignorant, but if Muslims won't speak of this evil in their midst, others must.

  10. #30
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    Re: Under fire, Brandeis cancels plan to honor anti-Islam feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Calling Islam a destructive, nihilistic cult of death is freedom of speech and not such a great exaggeration as far as women, her main issue, is concerned.
    Actually, it is a massive exaggeration. For one "nihilistic" plainly does not apply and use of the term betrays either an ignorance of the term's meaning or a dishonest criticism. The "cult of death" part is more judging Islam for the actions of some of its adherents, rather than the actual tenets of the faith. It does not center on death particularly more than any other religion and it is just one of many faiths where war and capital punishment are discussed as acceptable under the right circumstances. Much of Shariah law is not actually derived from the Quran, but the hadith, which are subject to interpretation with their veracity often questioned. It is quite probable that certain Islamic scholars are simply reading into a given text what they want as people are wont to do with any text.
    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I see we have another example of right wingers demonstrating their failure to understand the First Amendment, and how it doesn't limit private entities.
    While I would agree that her free speech was not violated in this case, it is an excessively common mistake for "liberals" to treat freedom of speech as though it is something that can only be threatened by the government based on the fact that the First Amendment only mentions Congress. This arises from ignorance of the constitution and its purpose. No part of the constitution limits the actions of private citizens because it was created as a means of limiting government. Everyone already agreed that government was far from the only entity that could violate a person's rights as government's role was perceived as being to protect the rights of individuals from being violated by other individuals. Creating a constitution was about preventing the government from becoming an entity that would violate these rights itself. The reason her freedom of speech was not threatened in this case is because this was about giving her an honor, basically an award. By no means is refusing to bestow an honor upon someone due to controversial comments or actions the same as threatening someone's freedom of speech. A person's right to freedom of speech does not require anyone to approve of or honor that speech. Giving her an honorary degree could been seen as approving or honoring her statements and they were not in any way obligated to do that.
    Last edited by Demon of Light; 04-12-14 at 12:46 AM.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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