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Mass stabbing at US school.

Do you have any sources at ALL that show this is a problem? That this has caused any public harm at all???? How do you know they didnt grow up with guns, hunting, target shooting, etc? Guns were just part of many people's upbringing, esp. in the past.

First of all, I grew up hunting and target shooting, reload, have fired tens of thousands of rounds through rifles, pistols and shotguns, and I'm certain I am not competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space. I recognize that armed combat with a deadly shooter in an environment like a school is an acquired SKILL. I haven't trained for that.

Every employer who actually hires people to engage in armed combat puts their employees through extensive training - cops, military, etc. I think it's beyond irresponsible to ASSUME that Mr. History Professor with his newly minted CC permit has that skill, or that giving him a handgun to carry while at work is a net reduction in risk for those kids, given that roughly 99.9999999% or so of the time he will NOT be facing armed intruders, but children, in a classroom, where the biggest threat is a fistfight.

Most employers agree with me, which is why most do not allow pistol packing employees in the office. Insurers agree because they often refuse coverage for schools intending to arm untrained teachers, and few schools elect to arm their teachers, public OR private. Same with the military, who certainly have many soldiers EXTREMELY well trained in armed combat. So nearly everyone who has the responsibility for the downside of introducing deadly weapons in the workplace elects to keep them out, believing that on net, there is less risk of harm when guns are NOT introduced into those environments.

Just because there's no 'mandated' training certainly does not mean people "dont get training." My state requires NO training for a cc permit. There are several other states the same. Some states require NO permit at all.

There is only one study t
hat I know of (we've discussed this issue alot on gun forums because not even all gun owners agree on it)...that examines if states WITH mandatory training and those without have ANY difference in gun negligence or accidents (not crime...training has no bearing on crime).

There's a study of OR and WA, regarding OR requiring training and WA not. The findings were that WA has a higher population, higher population density, more guns, more CC permits, and fewer gun-related incidents than OR.

This does not mean that training is not important. Everyone agrees it is. It just indicates that 'mandatory' training does not make a difference in public safety....probably because gun owners are getting the experience they need one way or another.

Otherwise there is no data showing that states with mandatory training requirements have any lower rate of gun incidents.

There's no requirement in my state, as I said....and while I'm not 'into guns' I do like shooting and I actively train (not just target shoot, train)..mostly because it's fun.

I'll just finish with this - if you as an employer arm your employees as they interact with the public, only the reckless employer guesses whether the person (s)he armed has the appropriate training to use his or her weapon responsibly in a combat situation, in a crowded public space, full of innocents.
 
Well is the gun firing itself? I guess I didnt understand your post.

My point was a gun can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly, depending on the situation, his or her training and skill with that weapon, knowing when to use and not to use a deadly weapon, etc.
 
First of all, I grew up hunting and target shooting, reload, have fired tens of thousands of rounds through rifles, pistols and shotguns, and I'm certain I am not competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space. I recognize that armed combat with a deadly shooter in an environment like a school is an acquired SKILL. I haven't trained for that.

Every employer who actually hires people to engage in armed combat puts their employees through extensive training - cops, military, etc. I think it's beyond irresponsible to ASSUME that Mr. History Professor with his newly minted CC permit has that skill, or that giving him a handgun to carry while at work is a net reduction in risk for those kids, given that roughly 99.9999999% or so of the time he will NOT be facing armed intruders, but children, in a classroom, where the biggest threat is a fistfight.

Most employers agree with me, which is why most do not allow pistol packing employees in the office. Insurers agree because they often refuse coverage for schools intending to arm untrained teachers, and few schools elect to arm their teachers, public OR private. Same with the military, who certainly have many soldiers EXTREMELY well trained in armed combat. So nearly everyone who has the responsibility for the downside of introducing deadly weapons in the workplace elects to keep them out, believing that on net, there is less risk of harm when guns are NOT introduced into those environments.



I'll just finish with this - if you as an employer arm your employees as they interact with the public, only the reckless employer guesses whether the person (s)he armed has the appropriate training to use his or her weapon responsibly in a combat situation, in a crowded public space, full of innocents.

A cc permit holder is not a cop. It is not their job to stop crime and that is not the basis for the right to carry. *Carrying* a firearm is for self-defense.

The law in most/all states is extended to preventing personal gross bodily harm and/or the commission of forcible felony against others.

No one is REQUIRED to do those things for others. The main purpose is for self-defense. So the requirements also do not include any competency for many of the things you described...there is no obligation to do those things. Nor intent for many carriers either.

Seems to be working out pretty well too. How many innocent bystanders...in offices, at workplaces, in the malls, on the streets...have you heard of killed or even shot by a cc permit holder by accident or while they were using the weapon for self-defense or to prevent the commission of a crime?
 
My point was a gun can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly, depending on the situation, his or her training and skill with that weapon, knowing when to use and not to use a deadly weapon, etc.

If your only criteria for 'responsible' is not harming someone else accidentally then it's mostly cops that would be irresponsible.

Again....how many incidents have you seen where the millions of people legally carrying their firearms 'irresponsibly' harmed someone else? Of course, that does not include people actually intending to commit a crime. I guess it could include hunting accidents.
 
This insanity must stop. BAN ALL CUTLERY!!!!!!
 
So, it's common sense that any yahoo, who might have never before picked up a gun, can get 8 hours of training that's required in my state and be competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space, without putting the panicked innocent bystanders at risk? And it's also common sense that introducing 10 handguns in a school during the 99.999999% of the time that there is not a crazed shooter killing children introduces NO extra risk, either of an accident, a child getting access to that weapon, or the teacher themselves using it in inappropriate circumstances.

You should alert the local police agencies and let them all know the initial and ongoing training we put our law enforcement officers through is a waste of time and money! Cops should do fine with a bit of common sense.

And you should also probably alert the insurance carriers for the schools. They're too stupid to know that untrained teachers carrying guns does NOT add to the risk of loss, but instead often decline to even cover schools that plan to put handguns in the hands of untrained teachers.

Be careful, your hyperbole is showing.

All of the folks who I know that carry train more than any PD.

I shot the qualifying range with the local Sheriff department several years ago and placed in the top 2%.

NYPD opened fire on a perp on the streets a year ago and shot several civilians.

Your fear-based assumption that all cops are better that any civilian who carries just does not hold water.

Sorry about your luck.
 
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A cc permit holder is not a cop. It is not their job to stop crime and that is not the basis for the right to carry. *Carrying* a firearm is for self-defense.

The law in most/all states is extended to preventing personal gross bodily harm and/or the commission of forcible felony against others.

No one is REQUIRED to do those things for others. The main purpose is for self-defense. So the requirements also do not include any competency for many of the things you described...there is no obligation to do those things. Nor intent for many carriers either.

Seems to be working out pretty well too. How many innocent bystanders...in offices, at workplaces, in the malls, on the streets...have you heard of killed or even shot by a cc permit holder by accident or while they were using the weapon for self-defense or to prevent the commission of a crime?

We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...
 
We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...

Think negative, see negative.
 
We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...

I dont care about suicides (seriously, I dont...) and of the others, how many involved the public? How many involved permit holders employing their weapons in public? How many are hunting accidents? How many of those posed ANY danger to the public?

If you cannot differentiate in those statistics what happened 'at home' and what happened 'in public' they dont mean much because almost anyone can own guns in their home and millions do. We are discussing people legally carrying firearms in public.

Back to that then: teachers concealed carrying. Other opinions were expressed, but *I* wrote that if a teacher wants to exercise their state's right to cc, then of course they should be allowed to. There is NO reason to believe the kids would be in any MORE danger than they are now and perhaps more could be saved in these school shooting incidents.

If you have any data to indicate otherwise, let's see it.

(btw, the stats on injury and death, esp for kids. due to vehicles are worse....but I dont see anyone loosing sleep over that..which amazes me cuz I am terrified of the idiots texting...and this is based on **perception alone**....we like our cars/guns are bad)
 
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bunch o links, only 2 of which were relevant.

Tsk tsk tks. Someone didnt read properly.

So 2 of those actually happened in public locations. They were careless fools, no doubt. Yes, it does happen...however you could only find 2 instances out of ALL the cc permit holders out there?

Because again....ANY American not a convicted felon or under certain mental restrictions can under the 2A own and keep guns. Hundreds of millions of Americans do. Few gun laws currently proposed affect that and they have no bearing on the thread....people carrying guns to protect kids.

And here's another one....man leaves 7 yr old son with 3 yr old daughter in van in parking lot. Son gets loaded gun out of glove compartment and kills sister.

Terrible tragedy. And it was a cop's kids and a cop's incompetance. Was he not 'trained?'

It's about responsibility and yes...in life we are all at the mercy of the irresponsible occasionally. Like on the roads every single day. That's just taken for granted but you are WAY more in danger driving every day than you ever are from a a person legally carrying a gun.

And also, see my sig, in blue.
 
Tsk tsk tks. Someone didnt read properly.

So 2 of those actually happened in public locations. They were careless fools, no doubt. Yes, it does happen...however you could only find 2 instances out of ALL the cc permit holders out there?

Because again....ANY American not a convicted felon or under certain mental restrictions can under the 2A own and keep guns. Hundreds of millions of Americans do. Few gun laws currently proposed affect that and they have no bearing on the thread....people carrying guns to protect kids.

And here's another one....man leaves 7 yr old son with 3 yr old daughter in van in parking lot. Son gets loaded gun out of glove compartment and kills sister.

Terrible tragedy. And it was a cop's kids and a cop's incompetance. Was he not 'trained?'

It's about responsibility and yes...in life we are all at the mercy of the irresponsible occasionally. Like on the roads every single day. That's just taken for granted but you are WAY more in danger driving every day than you ever are from a a person legally carrying a gun.

And also, see my sig, in blue.

Yup - those minuscule numbers are statistically insignificant.

You are right about self responsibility - I am responsible for the safety of my family every day.

That responsibility involves a .45 auto.
 
I shot the qualifying range with the local Sheriff department several years ago and placed in the top 2%.

NYPD opened fire on a perp on the streets a year ago and shot several civilians.

Your fear-based assumption that all cops are better that any civilian who carries just does not hold water.

It's not fear-based, and you made up that assumption. I've been to several gun competitions and the best of those guys are frankly amazingly skilled. So what? How does that affect the debate? My sister in law shot a handgun for the first time less than a year ago, I wouldn't bet a nickel on her being able to hit a whiskey barrel from 20 feet under stress, and she has a newly minted carry permit. You OK with her packing in a school? Is she qualified to take down Adam Lanza?

The point was cops are trained. If SOME CC holders are incredibly skilled, that's great, they have had lots of training and it's ongoing. If you're a principal, do you get to assume everyone with a permit would score in the top 2% of the qualifying standards because you do, and you hang out with gun enthusiasts and they do as well? Especially since the requirements for a permit are essentially between nothing and nominal?
 
It's not fear-based, and you made up that assumption. I've been to several gun competitions and the best of those guys are frankly amazingly skilled. So what? How does that affect the debate? My sister in law shot a handgun for the first time less than a year ago, I wouldn't bet a nickel on her being able to hit a whiskey barrel from 20 feet under stress, and she has a newly minted carry permit. You OK with her packing in a school? Is she qualified to take down Adam Lanza?

The point was cops are trained. If SOME CC holders are incredibly skilled, that's great, they have had lots of training and it's ongoing. If you're a principal, do you get to assume everyone with a permit would score in the top 2% of the qualifying standards because you do, and you hang out with gun enthusiasts and they do as well? Especially since the requirements for a permit are essentially between nothing and nominal?

Yup, fear based upon ignorance.

You are unable to see any positive outcome.
 
If only the school was a knife-free zone...

They likely are. We all know that some one in fact bring both to school, but having it as policy that they shouldn't allows for legal recourse before they are used if spotted. There's good reason to be concerned if you see a student with either. Not toy guns or knifes, but the real deal.

Guns are neither magic nor evil. They are just a tool and nothing more. But they are a deadly tool. Unlike a car, which is also deadly, the purpose of a gun really is to shoot something. And while there can be valid reasons for having one, there is much deliberate negative associated with them as well. It's not evil to be concerned about taking some reasonable precautions.
 
Yup, fear based upon ignorance.

You are unable to see any positive outcome.

Where have I demonstrated ignorance? By citing facts and assuming that the same factors (people making dumb mistakes) that lead to 10s of thousands of accidental shootings per year apply to guns introduced into schools and there is a non-trivial increase in the risk of gun injury or death when a gun is introduced into a workplace, the same conclusion reached by the vast majority of employers, among them the U.S. miitary?

And I can close my eyes to evidence and 'see' a positive outcome. But I'm not willing to wish that evidence away and pretend that the only possible outcome of arming 500,000 teachers is one of them will safely take down the next Adam Lanza. Ignoramuses think like that, not people who respect firearms and their obvious danger when people get careless, as people always do on occasion.

Just four recent cases where a firearms instructor accidentally discharged their weapon...

Concealed-carry instructor charged in accidental shooting | The Columbus Dispatch
Ex-police officer, a firearms instructor, accidentally shoots himself outside Glenwood school - Omaha.com
No charges, citations in firearms instructor
Gun safety instructor accidentally fired handgun inside Stillwater school just before class began | City Pages
 
Where have I demonstrated ignorance? By citing facts and assuming that the same factors (people making dumb mistakes) that lead to 10s of thousands of accidental shootings per year apply to guns introduced into schools and there is a non-trivial increase in the risk of gun injury or death when a gun is introduced into a workplace, the same conclusion reached by the vast majority of employers, among them the U.S. miitary?

And I can close my eyes to evidence and 'see' a positive outcome. But I'm not willing to wish that evidence away and pretend that the only possible outcome of arming 500,000 teachers is one of them will safely take down the next Adam Lanza. Ignoramuses think like that, not people who respect firearms and their obvious danger when people get careless, as people always do on occasion.

Just four recent cases where a firearms instructor accidentally discharged their weapon...

Concealed-carry instructor charged in accidental shooting | The Columbus Dispatch
Ex-police officer, a firearms instructor, accidentally shoots himself outside Glenwood school - Omaha.com
No charges, citations in firearms instructor
Gun safety instructor accidentally fired handgun inside Stillwater school just before class began | City Pages

Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.
 
Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.

This evidence thing works both ways - on what evidence do you base your conclusion that CC holders are relative saints compared to the rest of gun owners, especially with the recent explosion in the number of carry permits issued?

Man shoots himself in leg at DC’s homeland security campus in apparent accident - The Washington Post
Florida man accidentally shoots self in leg after gun safety class | The Raw Story
 
Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.

On point with the manufacturing observation.

Determination, training, confidence and control reflect my beliefs.

I've been carrying daily for 10 years, and thankfully have never had to use my weapon.

That does not make me complacent.
 
This evidence thing works both ways - on what evidence do you base your conclusion that CC holders are relative saints compared to the rest of gun owners, especially with the recent explosion in the number of carry permits issued?

Man shoots himself in leg at DC’s homeland security campus in apparent accident - The Washington Post
Florida man accidentally shoots self in leg after gun safety class | The Raw Story

Not saints. What drivers are saints? Thousands and thousands are killed and injured by cars every yr. Since when is that a criteria for providing or limiting a right in this country (and driving is not even a right).

If you have ANY reason to demonstrate that concealed carrying places the public in greater danger than not cc'ing, please present it.

Otherwise you are proposing limiting or denying some people's legal choice for self-defense with no foundation to base it on.
 
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Not saints. What drivers are saints? Thousands and thousands are killed and injured by cars every yr. Since when is that a criteria for providing or limiting a right in this country (and driving is not even a right).

If you have ANY reason to demonstrate that concealed carrying places the public in greater danger than not cc'ing, please present it.

Unless there is something different with CC holders than others, the 14,000-19,000 injuries PER YEAR from accidental shootings, the 600-800 killed PER YEAR by accidental shootings is the reason. You dismiss that with a wave of your hand.

Otherwise you are proposing limiting or denying some people's legal choice for self-defense with no foundation to base it on.

The question is pretty simple. How do you weigh the risk of accidental shooting/death as a result of arming, say, 5 teachers in 100,000 schools? Zero? There is no risk?

If it's a positive risk, and it is, then what I rationally do is compare some rough estimate of the risk, to the expected benefit. Arming teachers has an expected benefit approaching zero - less than a handful of mass shootings per year, spread randomly among roughly 100,000 schools.

Substantial risk/near zero expected benefit = (in my view) keep guns out of workforce. I can't swear to it, but I imagine all those other employers who don't allow concealed carry do the same simple risk/reward calculation. What am i doing wrong? Should I assume none of those 15,000 accidental shootings/6-800 deaths with injury will happen in any school with armed teachers?
 
Unless there is something different with CC holders than others, the 14,000-19,000 injuries PER YEAR from accidental shootings, the 600-800 killed PER YEAR by accidental shootings is the reason. You dismiss that with a wave of your hand.



The question is pretty simple. How do you weigh the risk of accidental shooting/death as a result of arming, say, 5 teachers in 100,000 schools? Zero? There is no risk?

If it's a positive risk, and it is, then what I rationally do is compare some rough estimate of the risk, to the expected benefit. Arming teachers has an expected benefit approaching zero - less than a handful of mass shootings per year, spread randomly among roughly 100,000 schools.

Substantial risk/near zero expected benefit = (in my view) keep guns out of workforce. I can't swear to it, but I imagine all those other employers who don't allow concealed carry do the same simple risk/reward calculation. What am i doing wrong? Should I assume none of those 15,000 accidental shootings/6-800 deaths with injury will happen in any school with armed teachers?

NO...you dont get it. YOu cannot attribute all those accidents to cc holders (and there are several states now where none is needed).

Many more millions of Americans own guns than 'carry them' on a regular basis. THe great majority of accidents you posted happen at home or on their property....

We are talking about the risks of carrying firearms in public. And there's no substantive reason I've seen to restrict that. I believe it should be expanded in many states...but every state is different so it's hard to make blanket statements.

Assume what you want....you dont have anything solid to base it on. I bet if one teacher saved one kid in a classroom during an attack, it would be worth it. Your supposition is that teachers will accidentally kill a kid during an attack? Wow. Yes that is possible but I can only apply my own value to it....*I* personally would want to have the right to defend myself AND my students from the attacker and *I* personally would want my kid's teacher to be armed and have the "chance" to do that.
 
We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, so I suppose so.

1. Right to life - You sure about that? Ask the pro choice crowd....

2. Right to liberty - You sure about that...I guess until the government want's your land, then out the door with liberty, among other things.

3. Pursuit of happiness - With out a true right to life, or liberty, happiness is out the window.
 
1. Right to life - You sure about that? Ask the pro choice crowd....

Well, if you've already entered this big crazy old world, then you have a right to life still, unless, of course, the government decides you're a terrorist.


2. Right to liberty - You sure about that...I guess until the government want's your land, then out the door with liberty, among other things.

If the government wants your land, then they can use the asset forfeiture laws that we, the people, allow to stand to take it. In the case of the Nevada rancher, however, he still has his land. He's lost the use of our land he didn't want to pay for, but his still has his own acreage. So, yes, in a way you're right.

3. Pursuit of happiness - With out a true right to life, or liberty, happiness is out the window.

Then let's work to repeal asset forfeiture, indefinite detention without trial, and the Patriot Act. That should help.
 
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