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Thread: Mass stabbing at US school.

  1. #341
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    If only the school was a knife-free zone...
    They likely are. We all know that some one in fact bring both to school, but having it as policy that they shouldn't allows for legal recourse before they are used if spotted. There's good reason to be concerned if you see a student with either. Not toy guns or knifes, but the real deal.

    Guns are neither magic nor evil. They are just a tool and nothing more. But they are a deadly tool. Unlike a car, which is also deadly, the purpose of a gun really is to shoot something. And while there can be valid reasons for having one, there is much deliberate negative associated with them as well. It's not evil to be concerned about taking some reasonable precautions.

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  2. #342
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    Yup, fear based upon ignorance.

    You are unable to see any positive outcome.
    Where have I demonstrated ignorance? By citing facts and assuming that the same factors (people making dumb mistakes) that lead to 10s of thousands of accidental shootings per year apply to guns introduced into schools and there is a non-trivial increase in the risk of gun injury or death when a gun is introduced into a workplace, the same conclusion reached by the vast majority of employers, among them the U.S. miitary?

    And I can close my eyes to evidence and 'see' a positive outcome. But I'm not willing to wish that evidence away and pretend that the only possible outcome of arming 500,000 teachers is one of them will safely take down the next Adam Lanza. Ignoramuses think like that, not people who respect firearms and their obvious danger when people get careless, as people always do on occasion.

    Just four recent cases where a firearms instructor accidentally discharged their weapon...

    Concealed-carry instructor charged in accidental shooting | The Columbus Dispatch
    Ex-police officer, a firearms instructor, accidentally shoots himself outside Glenwood school - Omaha.com
    No charges, citations in firearms instructor
    Gun safety instructor accidentally fired handgun inside Stillwater school just before class began | City Pages

  3. #343
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Where have I demonstrated ignorance? By citing facts and assuming that the same factors (people making dumb mistakes) that lead to 10s of thousands of accidental shootings per year apply to guns introduced into schools and there is a non-trivial increase in the risk of gun injury or death when a gun is introduced into a workplace, the same conclusion reached by the vast majority of employers, among them the U.S. miitary?

    And I can close my eyes to evidence and 'see' a positive outcome. But I'm not willing to wish that evidence away and pretend that the only possible outcome of arming 500,000 teachers is one of them will safely take down the next Adam Lanza. Ignoramuses think like that, not people who respect firearms and their obvious danger when people get careless, as people always do on occasion.

    Just four recent cases where a firearms instructor accidentally discharged their weapon...

    Concealed-carry instructor charged in accidental shooting | The Columbus Dispatch
    Ex-police officer, a firearms instructor, accidentally shoots himself outside Glenwood school - Omaha.com
    No charges, citations in firearms instructor
    Gun safety instructor accidentally fired handgun inside Stillwater school just before class began | City Pages
    Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #344
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.
    This evidence thing works both ways - on what evidence do you base your conclusion that CC holders are relative saints compared to the rest of gun owners, especially with the recent explosion in the number of carry permits issued?

    Man shoots himself in leg at DC’s homeland security campus in apparent accident - The Washington Post
    Florida man accidentally shoots self in leg after gun safety class | The Raw Story

  5. #345
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Again....where are the more relevant statistics or links on the legal carriers that harm others when carrying? Or even put them in danger. Somerville found 2, they exist...just like any accidents exist. But you are trying to manufacture something without any foundation here.
    On point with the manufacturing observation.

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  6. #346
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    This evidence thing works both ways - on what evidence do you base your conclusion that CC holders are relative saints compared to the rest of gun owners, especially with the recent explosion in the number of carry permits issued?

    Man shoots himself in leg at DC’s homeland security campus in apparent accident - The Washington Post
    Florida man accidentally shoots self in leg after gun safety class | The Raw Story
    Not saints. What drivers are saints? Thousands and thousands are killed and injured by cars every yr. Since when is that a criteria for providing or limiting a right in this country (and driving is not even a right).

    If you have ANY reason to demonstrate that concealed carrying places the public in greater danger than not cc'ing, please present it.

    Otherwise you are proposing limiting or denying some people's legal choice for self-defense with no foundation to base it on.
    Last edited by Lursa; 04-15-14 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  7. #347
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Not saints. What drivers are saints? Thousands and thousands are killed and injured by cars every yr. Since when is that a criteria for providing or limiting a right in this country (and driving is not even a right).

    If you have ANY reason to demonstrate that concealed carrying places the public in greater danger than not cc'ing, please present it.
    Unless there is something different with CC holders than others, the 14,000-19,000 injuries PER YEAR from accidental shootings, the 600-800 killed PER YEAR by accidental shootings is the reason. You dismiss that with a wave of your hand.

    Otherwise you are proposing limiting or denying some people's legal choice for self-defense with no foundation to base it on.
    The question is pretty simple. How do you weigh the risk of accidental shooting/death as a result of arming, say, 5 teachers in 100,000 schools? Zero? There is no risk?

    If it's a positive risk, and it is, then what I rationally do is compare some rough estimate of the risk, to the expected benefit. Arming teachers has an expected benefit approaching zero - less than a handful of mass shootings per year, spread randomly among roughly 100,000 schools.

    Substantial risk/near zero expected benefit = (in my view) keep guns out of workforce. I can't swear to it, but I imagine all those other employers who don't allow concealed carry do the same simple risk/reward calculation. What am i doing wrong? Should I assume none of those 15,000 accidental shootings/6-800 deaths with injury will happen in any school with armed teachers?

  8. #348
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Unless there is something different with CC holders than others, the 14,000-19,000 injuries PER YEAR from accidental shootings, the 600-800 killed PER YEAR by accidental shootings is the reason. You dismiss that with a wave of your hand.



    The question is pretty simple. How do you weigh the risk of accidental shooting/death as a result of arming, say, 5 teachers in 100,000 schools? Zero? There is no risk?

    If it's a positive risk, and it is, then what I rationally do is compare some rough estimate of the risk, to the expected benefit. Arming teachers has an expected benefit approaching zero - less than a handful of mass shootings per year, spread randomly among roughly 100,000 schools.

    Substantial risk/near zero expected benefit = (in my view) keep guns out of workforce. I can't swear to it, but I imagine all those other employers who don't allow concealed carry do the same simple risk/reward calculation. What am i doing wrong? Should I assume none of those 15,000 accidental shootings/6-800 deaths with injury will happen in any school with armed teachers?
    NO...you dont get it. YOu cannot attribute all those accidents to cc holders (and there are several states now where none is needed).

    Many more millions of Americans own guns than 'carry them' on a regular basis. THe great majority of accidents you posted happen at home or on their property....

    We are talking about the risks of carrying firearms in public. And there's no substantive reason I've seen to restrict that. I believe it should be expanded in many states...but every state is different so it's hard to make blanket statements.

    Assume what you want....you dont have anything solid to base it on. I bet if one teacher saved one kid in a classroom during an attack, it would be worth it. Your supposition is that teachers will accidentally kill a kid during an attack? Wow. Yes that is possible but I can only apply my own value to it....*I* personally would want to have the right to defend myself AND my students from the attacker and *I* personally would want my kid's teacher to be armed and have the "chance" to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #349
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, so I suppose so.
    1. Right to life - You sure about that? Ask the pro choice crowd....

    2. Right to liberty - You sure about that...I guess until the government want's your land, then out the door with liberty, among other things.

    3. Pursuit of happiness - With out a true right to life, or liberty, happiness is out the window.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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  10. #350
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    1. Right to life - You sure about that? Ask the pro choice crowd....
    Well, if you've already entered this big crazy old world, then you have a right to life still, unless, of course, the government decides you're a terrorist.


    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    2. Right to liberty - You sure about that...I guess until the government want's your land, then out the door with liberty, among other things.
    If the government wants your land, then they can use the asset forfeiture laws that we, the people, allow to stand to take it. In the case of the Nevada rancher, however, he still has his land. He's lost the use of our land he didn't want to pay for, but his still has his own acreage. So, yes, in a way you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    3. Pursuit of happiness - With out a true right to life, or liberty, happiness is out the window.
    Then let's work to repeal asset forfeiture, indefinite detention without trial, and the Patriot Act. That should help.
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