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Thread: Mass stabbing at US school.

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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    If only the school was a knife-free zone...

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    Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So, it's common sense that any yahoo, who might have never before picked up a gun, can get 8 hours of training that's required in my state and be competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space, without putting the panicked innocent bystanders at risk? And it's also common sense that introducing 10 handguns in a school during the 99.999999% of the time that there is not a crazed shooter killing children introduces NO extra risk, either of an accident, a child getting access to that weapon, or the teacher themselves using it in inappropriate circumstances.

    You should alert the local police agencies and let them all know the initial and ongoing training we put our law enforcement officers through is a waste of time and money! Cops should do fine with a bit of common sense.

    And you should also probably alert the insurance carriers for the schools. They're too stupid to know that untrained teachers carrying guns does NOT add to the risk of loss, but instead often decline to even cover schools that plan to put handguns in the hands of untrained teachers.
    Be careful, your hyperbole is showing.

    All of the folks who I know that carry train more than any PD.

    I shot the qualifying range with the local Sheriff department several years ago and placed in the top 2%.

    NYPD opened fire on a perp on the streets a year ago and shot several civilians.

    Your fear-based assumption that all cops are better that any civilian who carries just does not hold water.

    Sorry about your luck.
    Last edited by SMTA; 04-14-14 at 06:56 PM.
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  3. #333
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    A cc permit holder is not a cop. It is not their job to stop crime and that is not the basis for the right to carry. *Carrying* a firearm is for self-defense.

    The law in most/all states is extended to preventing personal gross bodily harm and/or the commission of forcible felony against others.

    No one is REQUIRED to do those things for others. The main purpose is for self-defense. So the requirements also do not include any competency for many of the things you described...there is no obligation to do those things. Nor intent for many carriers either.

    Seems to be working out pretty well too. How many innocent bystanders...in offices, at workplaces, in the malls, on the streets...have you heard of killed or even shot by a cc permit holder by accident or while they were using the weapon for self-defense or to prevent the commission of a crime?
    We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

    And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

    I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...

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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

    And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

    I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...
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  5. #335
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    We were talking about putting teachers in the role of armed guard, tasked with taking down shooters, or kids wielding knives, in schools. In that role they are no longer tasked with only defending themselves but also everyone else at that school. I fail to see the functional difference between that and a police officer.

    And according to Volokh, quoting CDC, there are about 14,000-19,000 non fatal accidental shootings per year, and 600-800 killed in accidental shootings. Plus about 20,000 gun suicides. The point is introducing a gun into a school (or anywhere) increases the risk of gun injury or death. If you want to argue that the increased risk is offset by the remote chance [1-5 (number of school mass shootings)/500,000-1,000,000 (assuming 5-10 guns for each of 100,000 schools)] one of those guns (about 0.001%) will be used to safely take out a deranged killer, then make that argument. I don't see the risk/reward working out, which is why very few employers allow guns in the workplace.

    I'm really mystified by experienced gun owners trivializing the risk of guns. I've seen them dropped and discharged (blew out the back of the guy's ankle), and fired by accident in at least a half dozen times over the years. That 5 of 6 didn't kill anyone is more luck than anything. My brother who is very experienced pulled the trigger on an "unloaded" gun, and I've handed an "unloaded" shotgun to a friend only to watch him jack a round out of the chamber. These things just happen because we are fallible no matter how experienced or careful. Every year there are a couple of stories about an instructor shooting himself or a student during gun safety classes. But to listen to the gun debate nowadays, they're as safe in a school as a teacher with a calculator and a sharp #2 pencil. I have more respect for guns to ever imagine they're 'safe.' They are GENERALLY safe, but mistakes kill people...
    I dont care about suicides (seriously, I dont...) and of the others, how many involved the public? How many involved permit holders employing their weapons in public? How many are hunting accidents? How many of those posed ANY danger to the public?

    If you cannot differentiate in those statistics what happened 'at home' and what happened 'in public' they dont mean much because almost anyone can own guns in their home and millions do. We are discussing people legally carrying firearms in public.

    Back to that then: teachers concealed carrying. Other opinions were expressed, but *I* wrote that if a teacher wants to exercise their state's right to cc, then of course they should be allowed to. There is NO reason to believe the kids would be in any MORE danger than they are now and perhaps more could be saved in these school shooting incidents.

    If you have any data to indicate otherwise, let's see it.

    (btw, the stats on injury and death, esp for kids. due to vehicles are worse....but I dont see anyone loosing sleep over that..which amazes me cuz I am terrified of the idiots texting...and this is based on **perception alone**....we like our cars/guns are bad)
    Last edited by Lursa; 04-14-14 at 07:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    bunch o links, only 2 of which were relevant.
    Tsk tsk tks. Someone didnt read properly.

    So 2 of those actually happened in public locations. They were careless fools, no doubt. Yes, it does happen...however you could only find 2 instances out of ALL the cc permit holders out there?

    Because again....ANY American not a convicted felon or under certain mental restrictions can under the 2A own and keep guns. Hundreds of millions of Americans do. Few gun laws currently proposed affect that and they have no bearing on the thread....people carrying guns to protect kids.

    And here's another one....man leaves 7 yr old son with 3 yr old daughter in van in parking lot. Son gets loaded gun out of glove compartment and kills sister.

    Terrible tragedy. And it was a cop's kids and a cop's incompetance. Was he not 'trained?'

    It's about responsibility and yes...in life we are all at the mercy of the irresponsible occasionally. Like on the roads every single day. That's just taken for granted but you are WAY more in danger driving every day than you ever are from a a person legally carrying a gun.

    And also, see my sig, in blue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Tsk tsk tks. Someone didnt read properly.

    So 2 of those actually happened in public locations. They were careless fools, no doubt. Yes, it does happen...however you could only find 2 instances out of ALL the cc permit holders out there?

    Because again....ANY American not a convicted felon or under certain mental restrictions can under the 2A own and keep guns. Hundreds of millions of Americans do. Few gun laws currently proposed affect that and they have no bearing on the thread....people carrying guns to protect kids.

    And here's another one....man leaves 7 yr old son with 3 yr old daughter in van in parking lot. Son gets loaded gun out of glove compartment and kills sister.

    Terrible tragedy. And it was a cop's kids and a cop's incompetance. Was he not 'trained?'

    It's about responsibility and yes...in life we are all at the mercy of the irresponsible occasionally. Like on the roads every single day. That's just taken for granted but you are WAY more in danger driving every day than you ever are from a a person legally carrying a gun.

    And also, see my sig, in blue.
    Yup - those minuscule numbers are statistically insignificant.

    You are right about self responsibility - I am responsible for the safety of my family every day.

    That responsibility involves a .45 auto.
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMTA View Post
    I shot the qualifying range with the local Sheriff department several years ago and placed in the top 2%.

    NYPD opened fire on a perp on the streets a year ago and shot several civilians.

    Your fear-based assumption that all cops are better that any civilian who carries just does not hold water.
    It's not fear-based, and you made up that assumption. I've been to several gun competitions and the best of those guys are frankly amazingly skilled. So what? How does that affect the debate? My sister in law shot a handgun for the first time less than a year ago, I wouldn't bet a nickel on her being able to hit a whiskey barrel from 20 feet under stress, and she has a newly minted carry permit. You OK with her packing in a school? Is she qualified to take down Adam Lanza?

    The point was cops are trained. If SOME CC holders are incredibly skilled, that's great, they have had lots of training and it's ongoing. If you're a principal, do you get to assume everyone with a permit would score in the top 2% of the qualifying standards because you do, and you hang out with gun enthusiasts and they do as well? Especially since the requirements for a permit are essentially between nothing and nominal?

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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's not fear-based, and you made up that assumption. I've been to several gun competitions and the best of those guys are frankly amazingly skilled. So what? How does that affect the debate? My sister in law shot a handgun for the first time less than a year ago, I wouldn't bet a nickel on her being able to hit a whiskey barrel from 20 feet under stress, and she has a newly minted carry permit. You OK with her packing in a school? Is she qualified to take down Adam Lanza?

    The point was cops are trained. If SOME CC holders are incredibly skilled, that's great, they have had lots of training and it's ongoing. If you're a principal, do you get to assume everyone with a permit would score in the top 2% of the qualifying standards because you do, and you hang out with gun enthusiasts and they do as well? Especially since the requirements for a permit are essentially between nothing and nominal?
    Yup, fear based upon ignorance.

    You are unable to see any positive outcome.
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    Baby sister, I was born game and I intend to go out that way - Rooster Cogburn

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