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Thread: Mass stabbing at US school.

  1. #321
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I see the people in public around me in passing, so I'm positive I miss 99% of those who are making ANY half-arsed attempt to conceal their handguns.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine working with someone daily, in the same office, wearing normal office attire, for weeks, without noticing that he's carrying a handgun.

    LOL

    Just the implication that you think they are 'he's' says alot.

    But many workplaces do not allow firearms so many people have to leave their firearms in their vehicles. Contrary to many people's views...most gun carriers observe the laws and also comply with their employers' requirements not to carry on premises...despite the risks that may carry for the individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #322
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You said a gun IS used intelligently, and I asked for some basis for that. You responded with a non sequitur regarding who has the right to CARRY a weapon or to vote.
    Well is the gun firing itself? I guess I didnt understand your post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #323
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    So, it's common sense that any yahoo, who might have never before picked up a gun, can get 8 hours of training that's required in my state and be competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space, without putting the panicked innocent bystanders at risk? And it's also common sense that introducing 10 handguns in a school during the 99.999999% of the time that there is not a crazed shooter killing children introduces NO extra risk, either of an accident, a child getting access to that weapon, or the teacher themselves using it in inappropriate circumstances.
    .
    Do you have any sources at ALL that show this is a problem? That this has caused any public harm at all???? How do you know they didnt grow up with guns, hunting, target shooting, etc? Guns were just part of many people's upbringing, esp. in the past.

    Just because there's no 'mandated' training certainly does not mean people "dont get training." My state requires NO training for a cc permit. There are several other states the same. Some states require NO permit at all.

    There is only one study that I know of (we've discussed this issue alot on gun forums because not even all gun owners agree on it)...that examines if states WITH mandatory training and those without have ANY difference in gun negligence or accidents (not crime...training has no bearing on crime).

    There's a study of OR and WA, regarding OR requiring training and WA not. The findings were that WA has a higher population, higher population density, more guns, more CC permits, and fewer gun-related incidents than OR.

    This does not mean that training is not important. Everyone agrees it is. It just indicates that 'mandatory' training does not make a difference in public safety....probably because gun owners are getting the experience they need one way or another.

    Otherwise there is no data showing that states with mandatory training requirements have any lower rate of gun incidents.

    There's no requirement in my state, as I said....and while I'm not 'into guns' I do like shooting and I actively train (not just target shoot, train)..mostly because it's fun.
    Last edited by Lursa; 04-14-14 at 03:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #324
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    LOL

    Just the implication that you think they are 'he's' says alot.
    Well, I made an assumption, based on a stereotype, confirmed by my fairly extensive time on trap, skeet and sporting clays ranges and the local shooting range, where 95% or so are men in my area.... My apologies.

    But many workplaces do not allow firearms so many people have to leave their firearms in their vehicles. Contrary to many people's views...most gun carriers observe the laws and also comply with their employers' requirements not to carry on premises...despite the risks that may carry for the individual.
    I own several guns as do almost all of my close friends, and many/most have CC permits. I'm quite confident most gun owners observe the law, etc. The point was I doubt I'd have trouble identifying a person carrying a weapon IF I was in close proximity with that person on a daily basis, interacting with him OR HER hours per day. Maybe I'm wrong....

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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    At least there was no armed security at the school. That would be evil and would take money from salary raises for the school administrators.

    Children's lives don't mean anything to school administrations. Their lives aren't worth $1 to protect. They are just a bothersome overpopulation herd to most of them.
    ... blaming the Administrators for not being able or willing to hire security is ridiculous. There are a few key strategic locations where some level of security is obvious and necessary (inner city schools), but we don't have the resources to turn every institute of education into an armed camp as a way of correcting the manic excesses of our culture and the violence it breeds.
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Do you have any sources at ALL that show this is a problem? That this has caused any public harm at all???? How do you know they didnt grow up with guns, hunting, target shooting, etc? Guns were just part of many people's upbringing, esp. in the past.
    First of all, I grew up hunting and target shooting, reload, have fired tens of thousands of rounds through rifles, pistols and shotguns, and I'm certain I am not competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space. I recognize that armed combat with a deadly shooter in an environment like a school is an acquired SKILL. I haven't trained for that.

    Every employer who actually hires people to engage in armed combat puts their employees through extensive training - cops, military, etc. I think it's beyond irresponsible to ASSUME that Mr. History Professor with his newly minted CC permit has that skill, or that giving him a handgun to carry while at work is a net reduction in risk for those kids, given that roughly 99.9999999% or so of the time he will NOT be facing armed intruders, but children, in a classroom, where the biggest threat is a fistfight.

    Most employers agree with me, which is why most do not allow pistol packing employees in the office. Insurers agree because they often refuse coverage for schools intending to arm untrained teachers, and few schools elect to arm their teachers, public OR private. Same with the military, who certainly have many soldiers EXTREMELY well trained in armed combat. So nearly everyone who has the responsibility for the downside of introducing deadly weapons in the workplace elects to keep them out, believing that on net, there is less risk of harm when guns are NOT introduced into those environments.

    Just because there's no 'mandated' training certainly does not mean people "dont get training." My state requires NO training for a cc permit. There are several other states the same. Some states require NO permit at all.

    There is only one study t
    hat I know of (we've discussed this issue alot on gun forums because not even all gun owners agree on it)...that examines if states WITH mandatory training and those without have ANY difference in gun negligence or accidents (not crime...training has no bearing on crime).

    There's a study of OR and WA, regarding OR requiring training and WA not. The findings were that WA has a higher population, higher population density, more guns, more CC permits, and fewer gun-related incidents than OR.

    This does not mean that training is not important. Everyone agrees it is. It just indicates that 'mandatory' training does not make a difference in public safety....probably because gun owners are getting the experience they need one way or another.

    Otherwise there is no data showing that states with mandatory training requirements have any lower rate of gun incidents.

    There's no requirement in my state, as I said....and while I'm not 'into guns' I do like shooting and I actively train (not just target shoot, train)..mostly because it's fun.
    I'll just finish with this - if you as an employer arm your employees as they interact with the public, only the reckless employer guesses whether the person (s)he armed has the appropriate training to use his or her weapon responsibly in a combat situation, in a crowded public space, full of innocents.

  7. #327
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Well is the gun firing itself? I guess I didnt understand your post.
    My point was a gun can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly, depending on the situation, his or her training and skill with that weapon, knowing when to use and not to use a deadly weapon, etc.

  8. #328
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    First of all, I grew up hunting and target shooting, reload, have fired tens of thousands of rounds through rifles, pistols and shotguns, and I'm certain I am not competent to take out a shooter in a crowded space. I recognize that armed combat with a deadly shooter in an environment like a school is an acquired SKILL. I haven't trained for that.

    Every employer who actually hires people to engage in armed combat puts their employees through extensive training - cops, military, etc. I think it's beyond irresponsible to ASSUME that Mr. History Professor with his newly minted CC permit has that skill, or that giving him a handgun to carry while at work is a net reduction in risk for those kids, given that roughly 99.9999999% or so of the time he will NOT be facing armed intruders, but children, in a classroom, where the biggest threat is a fistfight.

    Most employers agree with me, which is why most do not allow pistol packing employees in the office. Insurers agree because they often refuse coverage for schools intending to arm untrained teachers, and few schools elect to arm their teachers, public OR private. Same with the military, who certainly have many soldiers EXTREMELY well trained in armed combat. So nearly everyone who has the responsibility for the downside of introducing deadly weapons in the workplace elects to keep them out, believing that on net, there is less risk of harm when guns are NOT introduced into those environments.



    I'll just finish with this - if you as an employer arm your employees as they interact with the public, only the reckless employer guesses whether the person (s)he armed has the appropriate training to use his or her weapon responsibly in a combat situation, in a crowded public space, full of innocents.
    A cc permit holder is not a cop. It is not their job to stop crime and that is not the basis for the right to carry. *Carrying* a firearm is for self-defense.

    The law in most/all states is extended to preventing personal gross bodily harm and/or the commission of forcible felony against others.

    No one is REQUIRED to do those things for others. The main purpose is for self-defense. So the requirements also do not include any competency for many of the things you described...there is no obligation to do those things. Nor intent for many carriers either.

    Seems to be working out pretty well too. How many innocent bystanders...in offices, at workplaces, in the malls, on the streets...have you heard of killed or even shot by a cc permit holder by accident or while they were using the weapon for self-defense or to prevent the commission of a crime?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #329
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    My point was a gun can be used responsibly, or irresponsibly, depending on the situation, his or her training and skill with that weapon, knowing when to use and not to use a deadly weapon, etc.
    If your only criteria for 'responsible' is not harming someone else accidentally then it's mostly cops that would be irresponsible.

    Again....how many incidents have you seen where the millions of people legally carrying their firearms 'irresponsibly' harmed someone else? Of course, that does not include people actually intending to commit a crime. I guess it could include hunting accidents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #330
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    Re: Mass stabbing at US school.

    This insanity must stop. BAN ALL CUTLERY!!!!!!
    "Oh no no no, you got me talkin' politics. I didn't wanna. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. -- Sheriff Chris Mannix

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