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Thread: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    In EVERY generation morality is different. Why should YOUR morality be the BASELINE? I mean when what YOU were doing as a kid was different than your parents. What YOU did as a generation was different than your parents. And don't try to tell me it wasn't. You may not have participated personally but your generation did and it changed things.
    Yes, morality certainly changes with the times and many do not change with them, sometimes with good cause. But then that raises the question of what is morality. If it is that flexible does true morality really exist, or do we only have laws to keep us in line?

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Don't start arguing against a strawman. You made a claim that race was irrelevant to the vote. I falsified your claim. That's all I did. I didn't advance some counter argument that race was the only issue or whatever you may be imagining.
    The combined impact from ideology, age, religiosity, and party identification -- each of which had greater impact than race on their own -- was 50.3%. The impact of race was 5.5%. Yeah, I'm gonna call that irrelevant. If nothing else it doesn't remotely feed the "democrats couldn't control their black people" narrative that people who oppose same sex marriage love to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    All of our comments to each other are quoted, so you can backtrack up the chain and see what you said to start this and what I said in response.

    Also, the only poll taken on the day of the vote was the NEP poll.
    So? You have one poll, and there were other polls. Looking at just one poll is stupid. Smart people look at all the polls to look for the trend and dismiss the erratic results.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    So? You have one poll, and there were other polls. Looking at just one poll is stupid. Smart people look at all the polls to look for the trend and dismiss the erratic results.
    Smart people look at the poll taken on election day. They account for the big hulabaloo that resulted from the 70% black vote news coverage and how this creates incentives to "massage the truth" in polls taken a week later.

    Regardless, a 5.5% voting bloc switch would have flipped the result, which means it wasn't irrelevant.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Smart people look at the poll taken on election day. They account for the big hulabaloo that resulted from the 70% black vote news coverage and how this creates incentives to "massage the truth" in polls taken a week later.

    Regardless, a 5.5% voting bloc switch would have flipped the result, which means it wasn't irrelevant.
    Compared to the impact from religiosity, party identification, age and ideology even bringing up race is stupid.

    Smart people look at one poll that shows a bizarre spike and wonder why that poll and that alone would show such aberrant results. Do you have any evidence that the numbers in every single other poll were massaged? Unless you do it's clear that you're just fighting to keep the poll that feeds your narrative.
    Last edited by Cardinal; 04-06-14 at 03:19 AM.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Smart people look at one poll that shows a bizarre spike and wonder why that poll and that alone would show such aberrant results.
    WE both know that the news coverage of the high black vote was intensive after the defeat. The NEP poll was the only one taken on election day. Every respondent had no way of knowing how every other respondent was answering. Only after the news broke did the black community come to know how high their support for Prop. 8 actually was. Then the pollsters came a calling a week later. Now the response drops down significantly.

    We're still left with the incredible claim that 45% of Californians attend church weekly. I just find the inflation of church goers and the depression of black voters to be too convenient in order to arrive at the desired end result. If blacks go down, then some other groups have to go up.

    Look, it was a nice intellectual exercise, but it's really not the point. Your claim was falsified, that's that.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    WE both know that the news coverage of the high black vote was intensive after the defeat. The NEP poll was the only one taken on election day. Every respondent had no way of knowing how every other respondent was answering. Only after the news broke did the black community come to know how high their support for Prop. 8 actually was. Then the pollsters came a calling a week later. Now the response drops down significantly.
    All of that is purely speculation on your part.
    We're still left with the incredible claim that 45% of Californians attend church weekly. I just find the inflation of church goers and the depression of black voters to be too convenient in order to arrive at the desired end result. If blacks go down, then some other groups have to go up.
    And you still haven't explained what your basis is for doubting the 45% figure.

    Look, it was a nice intellectual exercise, but it's really not the point. Your claim was falsified, that's that.
    You can say that all you like, but I was arguing that black people didn't throw the election, but the much larger impacting factors like age, religiosity, ideology and party identification, which every single poll supports.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    All of that is purely speculation on your part.
    Of course it is, that's what people do when they suspect that someone (not you, but the poll) is lying to them.

    And you still haven't explained what your basis is for doubting the 45% figure.
    Gallup puts California church attendance far lower, at 35%, and that's when they ask "do you attend ALMOST every week" rather than what your poll asked by restricting the issue to "Do you attend weekly" - Utah can only get up to 56% by Gallup criteria, Missouri is at 45%, Virginia is at 43%, Florida is at 40% and West Virginia is at 43%, so I'm having a real hard time believing a poll which tells me that 45% of Californians attend church every week when only 43% of West Virginians respond that they attend ALMOST every week. What this looks like to me is post-hoc adjustments of some kind - the numbers had to add up to the vote outcome but how the different groups were weighted was a polling decision. To put such a heavy emphasis on church goers and reduce the role of the black community might do the trick. I don't know what's up, but that poll just doesn't smell right.

    California is not in the Bible Belt and yet it's supposed to have a weekly church attendance phenomena which exceeds that of the most religious region of the nation?

    You can say that all you like, but I was arguing that black people didn't throw the election.
    Of course I can say that because it's true. It doesn't matter what you INTENDED to write, what matters is what you wrote. You're not telling me anything new, I'm not disputing most of your arguments. You dismissed someone's point upthread, you didn't have a basis to do so, I falsified your rebuttal. We could have been spared this dance if you had given a more nuanced answer initially, but you didn't. I'm happy to accept your more nuanced answer but I wasn't disputing this nuanced position of yours.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Of course it is, that's what people do when they suspect that someone (not you, but the poll) is lying to them.
    Alright, then I too will speculate. The other polls have black people voting for prop 8 all in the mid fifties range, from the lowest at 41 (which is too low, actually) to the highest at 58. So we're supposed to believe that all these people said they'd vote against prop 8 before and after the election, but in the exit poll that spikes to 70%? A spike of about five percent? I can wrap my head around that, but 12% That doesn't sound right at all to me.

    Gallup puts California church attendance far lower, at 35%, and that's when they ask "do you attend ALMOST every week" rather than what your poll asked by restricting the issue to "Do you attend weekly" - Utah can only get up to 56% by Gallup criteria, Missouri is at 45%, Virginia is at 43%, Florida is at 40% and West Virginia is at 43%, so I'm having a real hard time believing a poll which tells me that 45% of Californians attend church every week when only 43% of West Virginians respond that they attend ALMOST every week. What this looks like to me is post-hoc adjustments of some kind - the numbers had to add up to the vote outcome but how the different groups were weighted was a polling decision. To put such a heavy emphasis on church goers and reduce the role of the black community might do the trick. I don't know what's up, but that poll just doesn't smell right.

    California is not in the Bible Belt and yet it's supposed to have a weekly church attendance phenomena which exceeds that of the most religious region of the nation?
    I don't know. My own research has figures in the 30's consistently as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    Of course I can say that because it's true. It doesn't matter what you INTENDED to write, what matters is what you wrote. You're not telling me anything new, I'm not disputing most of your arguments. You dismissed someone's point upthread, you didn't have a basis to do so, I falsified your rebuttal. We could have been spared this dance if you had given a more nuanced answer initially, but you didn't. I'm happy to accept your more nuanced answer but I wasn't disputing this nuanced position of yours.
    I was this nuanced pretty much from the moment you and I started. Here was the first post where I went into real detail:

    So you have the largest contributing factors being ideology (with Republicans and Conservatives voting at 81% and 82% respectively), church attendance at 70% (whoops, my memory was off), 65 and older at 67% (I owe Deuce an apology) and finally black people at 58%. Of course, the idea that it was older conservative religious church goers who were overwhelmingly in favor of prop 8 is boring and predictable (and obvious), so conservatives just ignore this and go with the idiotic "Liberals can't control their black people har har!" theme. Unless you want me to believe the conservative republican church goers over 65 were all black people?
    So right from the beginning my point was about what the largest and most important factors were, which was specifically to counter the narrative that black people caused prop 8 to pass. As you accept my point, however, then I'm content to let it drop.

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    The GOP loved him, eh?
    It was pressure from the GOP leadership that got him to step down. But, speaking of healthy heterosexual activity, how about Senator Diaper Dan Vitter? LOL.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

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    Re: Mozilla’s CEO steps down amid gay marriage furor[W:577]

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    It was pressure from the GOP leadership that got him to step down.
    But, speaking of healthy heterosexual activity, how about Senator Diaper Dan Vitter? LOL
    .



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