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Thread: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    If you call the FISA court offering legitimate warrants then you have to kidding me. FISA Court Has Rejected .03 Percent Of All Government Surveillance Requests | Mother Jones
    If anything the FISA court is essentially a rubber stamp.
    Wait...

    How can they rubber stamp something that doesn't exist? Since this is "warrantless"?

    If they rubber stamped a warrant, then it wasn't warrantless.

    So what's your argument? That warrantless actions are going on....or that the warrants for the action are obtained with a rubber stamp?

    Because as it stands, you seem to be making the both arguments, but the second counters the first.

    The Federal justice system also has an incredibly high conviction rate compared to other matters of law. Assuming it's because it's corrupt, just like you seem to be assuming with the FISA Courts, is poor logic. COULD that be one option? Sure. Another option could be that, much like the court system, they don't bother bringing many instances to the FISA court unless they're exceedingly confident that it'll pass.

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think the complaint has been that the warrants were overly broad and gave too much latitude to the investigators.
    That's the opposite of the truth. The protocols are clear, strict and leave little to no room for interpretation - that's why so few are rejected. That's how the system for special warrants should be.

    Would you prefer whimsical protocols that result in many rejections due to unclear standards and weak requests? Wanting that doesn't make any sense.

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The system was not designed to have no rejections; that's CT and assigning demonizing motives to others. The system was designed to have strict protocol that leaves little room for doubt. This removes judgement calls by those involved and keeps the system based on facts.

    That you have a problem with a system based on facts, and would prefer a system based on judgement calls by people in power, is contrary to good governance. If it was as you would like, I would object to the protocols and I hope you would too. We do not want FISA warrants being decided by whim instead of strict requirements.

    I cannot believe you would argue for a softer system, more prone to abuse. What kind of logic and reason could lead you to such desires?

    Read what I wrote. I never said that it was designed to have no rejections. I clearly stated that "the system itself is designed to have virtually no rejections", just as you yourself did when you said that the system is "so strict as to virtually eliminate rejections."

    EDIT: I didn't address the rest of your post because all you did was put words in my mouth. That really shows the strength of your argument right there.
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Read what I wrote. I never said that it was designed to have no rejections. I clearly stated that "the system itself is designed to have virtually no rejections", just as you yourself did when you said that the system is "so strict as to virtually eliminate rejections."
    And that's a good thing, right?

    Or would you prefer a soft system with unclear requirements that results in judgement calls instead of action based on clear and defined facts.


    ps. The system is not designed to have virtually no rejections, that's just the result of a system designed to be based on clear and strict requirements. You're putting the cart before the horse.

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wait...

    How can they rubber stamp something that doesn't exist? Since this is "warrantless"?

    If they rubber stamped a warrant, then it wasn't warrantless.
    Its like saying that the DPRK or the PRC has a democratic legislative body but infact they are essentially just rubber stamps, so they basically dont exist.


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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Its like saying that the DPRK or the PRC has a democratic legislative body but infact they are essentially just rubber stamps, so they basically dont exist.
    That is not based on clear requirements and facts. That's arbitrary. The FISA warrant system is not arbitrary.

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    That's the opposite of the truth. The protocols are clear, strict and leave little to no room for interpretation - that's why so few are rejected. That's how the system for special warrants should be.

    Would you prefer whimsical protocols that result in many rejections due to unclear standards and weak requests? Wanting that doesn't make any sense.
    Yeah, that's what I said I wanted.
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Yeah, that's what I said I wanted.
    I'm not saying you did. I'm just illustrating the alternative. If we had 50% of requests denied, there would be cries of overzealousness and lax standards.

    Fortunately, a system is in place that leaves little doubt about when such a warrant can and will be issued. That's not a bad thing.

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