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Thread: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

  1. #31
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Yes, clearly.
    Rubber stamp=just, or fair. We live in a country where rubber stamps are not supposed to be given out. We supposedly stand for "liberty and justice for all". When a rubber stamp court is around that goes directly against that principle.


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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's not really warrantless, that's just a catch phrase used by hacks. There are a few major requirements regarding these searches:

    1. One of the communicators must be outside the US.
    2. One of the communicators must be on the Terrorist Watchlist.
    3. A special warrant must be obtained, from a panel of judges, before the tap occurs.
    4. For anything in the tap to be used against someone, a full warrant must be obtained without the use of tap-gained material.
    Frankly these requirements strike me as potentially extremely loose.

    1 - I'd guess Americans are involved in hundreds of thousands of international calls a day. And most people probably make at least one international call a year. In other words the population of Americans who potentially meet this requirement and have done nothing wrong is huge.

    2 - Without knowing the process by which people are added or removed from terrorist watch lists we have no way of know how hard it is to meet that requirement. Being the skeptic that I am I'd guess the government can pretty much add anyone they want to a terrorist watch list.

    3 - We have no way of knowing what the criteria are the judges use for issuing a warrant. Is it probable cause, like most normal criminal warrants? Reasonable suspicion? Or just meeting your criteria 1 and 2 - which again are pretty flimsy.

    4 - Number 4 is frankly irrelevant. A warrant issued on flimsy criteria isn't a good warrant simply because the fishing expedition failed to catch any fish.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

  3. #33
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Frankly these requirements strike me as potentially extremely loose.
    Even a nun is potentially extremely loose.

  4. #34
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Frankly these requirements strike me as potentially extremely loose.

    1 - I'd guess Americans are involved in hundreds of thousands of international calls a day. And most people probably make at least one international call a year. In other words the population of Americans who potentially meet this requirement and have done nothing wrong is huge.

    2 - Without knowing the process by which people are added or removed from terrorist watch lists we have no way of know how hard it is to meet that requirement. Being the skeptic that I am I'd guess the government can pretty much add anyone they want to a terrorist watch list.

    3 - We have no way of knowing what the criteria are the judges use for issuing a warrant. Is it probable cause, like most normal criminal warrants? Reasonable suspicion? Or just meeting your criteria 1 and 2 - which again are pretty flimsy.

    4 - Number 4 is frankly irrelevant. A warrant issued on flimsy criteria isn't a good warrant simply because the fishing expedition failed to catch any fish.
    The article I linked in my previous post, about 10 back, states of 34,000 FISA requests, 11 were rejected. Rubber stamp, for real.

  5. #35
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Rubber stamp=just, or fair. We live in a country where rubber stamps are not supposed to be given out. We supposedly stand for "liberty and justice for all". When a rubber stamp court is around that goes directly against that principle.
    But it's not a rubber stamp. That's just your conspiracy theory.

    It's a highly restricted and regulated process with requirements so strict as to virtually eliminate rejections. A full warrant must be obtained (without using anything from the tap) for anything from the tap to be used against someone.

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    But it's not a rubber stamp. That's just your conspiracy theory.
    And the DPRK's and the PRC's legislature isnt a rubber stamp Thats just a geopolitical conspiracy theory...

    It's a highly restricted and regulated process with requirements so strict as to virtually eliminate rejections. A full warrant must be obtained for anything from the tap to be used against someone, without using anything from the tap.
    .03%.... .03%... Warrants have been given out to abuse lawyers who represent other countries in trade deals.


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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    And the DPRK's and the PRC's legislature isnt a rubber stamp Thats just a geopolitical conspiracy theory...

    .03%.... .03%... Warrants have been given out to abuse lawyers who represent other countries in trade deals.

    You're using conspiracy theory to compare the US to North Korea. Let me know when you'd like to join us in reality.

  8. #38
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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You're using conspiracy theory to compare the US to North Korea. Let me know when you'd like to join us in reality.
    Im not using a conspiracy theory. Im using facts. See post #6, and post #12 (just so happens you ignored the vast majority of that post and questions I asked).


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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Im not using a conspiracy theory. Im using facts.
    The facts have a clear and simple explanation, which you eschew for conspiracy theory. Then you use your conspiracy theory to compare the US to North Korea. You don't honestly expect anyone to take you seriously, right?

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    Re: U.S. confirms warrantless searches of Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    The facts have a clear and simple explanation, which you eschew for conspiracy theory. Then you use your conspiracy theory to compare the US to North Korea. You don't honestly expect anyone to take you seriously, right?




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