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Thread: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

  1. #651
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Yep, people are moving to Texas in droves to escape better pay; not to avoid higher taxes and cost of living.

    Would your rather earn $47K/year and pay $1K/month for housing or make $41K/year and pay $2K/month for housing?
    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    Rapid Population Growth: The state's population skyrocketed in the last two decades, from 17 million inhabitants in 1990 to more than 25 million last year. That flood of new residents led to increased spending in the Texas economy, and thus more jobs. The population in Texas has grown for a multitude of reasons, but as Paul Krugman wrote recently in an article titled, "The Texas Unmiracle," Texas' model for job growth would not be feasible on the national level since, "every state can’t lure jobs away from every other state."
    Energy: Texas also boasts a robust oil and natural gas industry that has boomed along with the rise in energy prices.
    $17 Billion Of Federal Stimulus: According to an analysis conducted by the Austin American-Statesman, almost half of Texas' job growth in the past two years took place in the education, health care, and government sectors, all areas supported by federal stimulus money.

    Rick Perry's Jobs Miracle Might Not Be Such a Miracle - Business Insider

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

    Don't shoot the messenger.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You don't seem to get it, the data you show doesn't trump the reality of what drives a consumer driven economy and it isn't govt. spending, it is consumer spending their own money which when there is a tax cut there is more of it. That creates the atmosphere for economic growth, something you don't seem to understand. ask your wife how she feels about more spendable income?

    Didn't get a response from you on who made the quote I posted and you ignored?
    I'm sorry, but data dies give us a better picture of reality that what one ideologue like yourself thinks.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #653
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    [QUOTE=Boo Radley;1063146536]I'm sorry, but data dies give us a better picture of reality that what one ideologue like yourself thinks.[/QUOTE

    Yep, that is why I post BEA, BLS, and Treasury Data for specific periods of time, not data taken out of context like you especially studies that don't recognize the difference in taxes and the fact that only three Presidents in modern history have actually cut tax rates and it is tax rate cuts that stimulate economic activity. I know this is hard for you to understand
    ]

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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    Rapid Population Growth: The state's population skyrocketed in the last two decades, from 17 million inhabitants in 1990 to more than 25 million last year. That flood of new residents led to increased spending in the Texas economy, and thus more jobs. The population in Texas has grown for a multitude of reasons, but as Paul Krugman wrote recently in an article titled, "The Texas Unmiracle," Texas' model for job growth would not be feasible on the national level since, "every state can’t lure jobs away from every other state."
    Energy: Texas also boasts a robust oil and natural gas industry that has boomed along with the rise in energy prices.
    $17 Billion Of Federal Stimulus: According to an analysis conducted by the Austin American-Statesman, almost half of Texas' job growth in the past two years took place in the education, health care, and government sectors, all areas supported by federal stimulus money.

    Rick Perry's Jobs Miracle Might Not Be Such a Miracle - Business Insider

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

    Don't shoot the messenger.
    Yep, people choose where they live thus choose their tax rates, which again is another choice that liberals like you don't seem to like.

    Amazing, isn't it that 1.3 million Americans per the Census moved to TX in the last three years to take advantage of those high property taxes, low wages, poverty, and no insurance. Wonder what their problem is? Maybe an expert like you can figure it out.

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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    I want to respond to Boo here who brought me into this by naming me some postings back, even though I wasn't in that particular back and forth....

    Joe, you say that taxes have little relation to what goes on in the economy, and if I read you correctly, alot of your argument boiled down seems to be the tired old argument that tax cuts only benefit the wealthy in our society...This is patently false, and has been demonstrated and documented in the past with real numbers....

    "Shifting tax burden describes the situation where the economic reaction to a tax causes prices and output in the economy to change, thereby shifting part of the burden to others. An example of this shifting took place when the government placed a sales tax on luxury goods in 1991, assuming the rich could afford to pay the tax and would not change their spending habits. Unfortunately, demand for some luxury items dropped and industries such as personal aircraft manufacturing and boat building suffered, causing unemployment for many factory workers. Tax shifting must be considered when setting tax policy."

    snip

    "Consumer spending typically equals two-thirds of GNP. As you would expect, lowering taxes raises disposable income, allowing the consumer to spend additional sums, thereby, increasing GNP."

    Further, the article says:

    "Reducing taxes, therefore, pushes out the aggregate demand curve as consumers demand more goods and services with their higher disposable incomes. Supply side tax cuts are aimed to stimulate capital formation. If successful, the cuts will shift both aggregate demand and aggregate supply because the price level for a supply of goods will be reduced, which often leads to an increase in demand for those goods."

    and

    "Tax cuts, when used properly, have stimulated the economy. Many credit President George W. Bush's tax cuts for moving the economy out of recession. Similarly, in 1964, Congress enacted an 18% cut in personal taxes to spur growth. The legislation was designed to encourage consumer spending - many believe that it succeeded admirably as consumers delivered a textbook reaction.

    According to a December 2004 article in Celtia.info, a magazine distributed in Celtic countries, tax cuts have also shown positive results in other countries as well. Ireland's recent tax cuts are believed to have improved living standards significantly. For years, the Irish were faced with high unemployment, budget deficits and high taxes. In 1986, Ireland faced a fiscal crisis. After reducing government spending, the government lowered taxes on both individuals and corporations. Over the next 13 years, Ireland's per capita income went from only 63% of the United Kingdom's average to besting it in 2000. Ireland now enjoys one of the highest standards of living in Europe."

    Do Tax Cuts Stimulate The Economy?

    And Joe, if you want real world, real time experience of this, we only need look to our great friends, and neighbors to the north....This from an article in that right wing rag, the HuffPo....

    "Instead of grants and handouts to the politically connected, I believe tax cuts create jobs. This idea is central to An Agenda for Growth. Tax cuts spur economic activity and expand the economy wherever they're tried. The result is more government revenue, not less.

    Here in Ontario, this was our experience. I'm proud to have been part of a government that substantially cut taxes on both people and businesses and carried through other pro-growth policies like balancing the budget and eliminating smothering red tape. The result was over a million net new jobs, credit rating upgrades and a 35 per cent increase in tax revenues."

    Tim Hudak: How Cutting Taxes Actually Helps the Economy

    But let's not take a Canadian politician's word for it, or a _______pedia's word either right? How about a PhD laying it out? Is that enough education in economics to break through the insanely stupid meme of "All the economists agree"?

    "There is a distinct pattern throughout American history: When tax rates are reduced, the economy's growth rate improves and living standards increase. Good tax policy has a number of interesting side effects. For instance, history tells us that tax revenues grow and "rich" taxpayers pay more tax when marginal tax rates are slashed. This means lower income citizens bear a lower share of the tax burden - a consequence that should lead class-warfare politicians to support lower tax rates.
    Conversely, periods of higher tax rates are associated with sub par economic performance and stagnant tax revenues. In other words, when politicians attempt to "soak the rich," the rest of us take a bath.

    snip

    "The tax cuts of the 1920s
    The share of the tax burden paid by the rich rose dramatically as tax rates were reduced. The share of the tax burden borne by the rich (those making $50,000 and up in those days) climbed from 44.2 percent in 1921 to 78.4 percent in 1928.

    The Kennedy tax cuts
    Just as happened in the 1920s, the share of the income tax burden borne by the rich increased following the tax cuts. Tax collections from those making over $50,000 per year climbed by 57 percent between 1963 and 1966, while tax collections from those earning below $50,000 rose 11 percent. As a result, the rich saw their portion of the income tax burden climb from 11.6 percent to 15.1 percent.

    The Reagan tax cuts
    The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988."

    Historic Tax Cuts and Economic Growth | Lessons of Lower Tax Rates

    So, as we see, lower tax rates, spur treasury revenue increases...Part of that is simply because those that have the means to hide their money, loosen up on just paying the tax on it because it is not such a burden to comply....This increase to the treasury means we don't have to borrow as much, and can use that surplus to pay down debt, and coupled with sane budgeting, (as if we have done a budget at all under this demo rule) can bring America back....

    Now look, You know me Joe, I am just a middle class guy, with a good job, but over the past, I'd say 8 years (yes that's right some during the Bush era as well) have seen my pay check cover less and less due to government policy, that has resulted in hidden inflation, and rising costs. To the point that I have actually this year considered suspending my retirement savings to make ends meet....That shouldn't be a choice in this country.

    Now you tell me Joe, what is it that demo's have done that have improved my middle class standard of living? Because all I see is them saying one thing, and attacking it behind the scenes.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  6. #656
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    People in the Northeast and Midwest (and Texas) pay the highest property taxes

    Rapid Population Growth: The state's population skyrocketed in the last two decades, from 17 million inhabitants in 1990 to more than 25 million last year. That flood of new residents led to increased spending in the Texas economy, and thus more jobs. The population in Texas has grown for a multitude of reasons, but as Paul Krugman wrote recently in an article titled, "The Texas Unmiracle," Texas' model for job growth would not be feasible on the national level since, "every state can’t lure jobs away from every other state."
    Energy: Texas also boasts a robust oil and natural gas industry that has boomed along with the rise in energy prices.
    $17 Billion Of Federal Stimulus: According to an analysis conducted by the Austin American-Statesman, almost half of Texas' job growth in the past two years took place in the education, health care, and government sectors, all areas supported by federal stimulus money.

    Rick Perry's Jobs Miracle Might Not Be Such a Miracle - Business Insider

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty

    Texas Has Highest Uninsured Rate, High Poverty « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

    Don't shoot the messenger.
    Your argument makes little sense here. If federal stimulus money created state/local gov't jobs in Texas then why would Texas have to raise property taxes to cover that expense? To assert that the property tax burden in Texas is too high ignores the state income tax rate of ZERO and food being exempt from the state's sales tax.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #657
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Your argument makes little sense here. If federal stimulus money created state/local gov't jobs in Texas then why would Texas have to raise property taxes to cover that expense? To assert that the property tax burden in Texas is too high ignores the state income tax rate of ZERO and food being exempt from the state's sales tax.
    I ignore nothing and gave you a few links. I can also give you links that point out that oil and cheap labor mean far more than taxes. I think I posted those earlier. Tried to give you new stuff here.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I ignore nothing and gave you a few links. I can also give you links that point out that oil and cheap labor mean far more than taxes. I think I posted those earlier. Tried to give you new stuff here.
    I am part of that cheap labor and yet I am able to live quite comfortably here in Texas. That is one of the reasons that Texas appeals to so many retirees. It is better to be employed even at a low wage (or on a fixed retirement income) in state with a low cost of living; lower state/local taxes contribute to that lower cost of living.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  9. #659
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm sorry, but data dies give us a better picture of reality that what one ideologue like yourself thinks.
    Yep, that is why I post BEA, BLS, and Treasury Data for specific periods of time, not data taken out of context like you especially studies that don't recognize the difference in taxes and the fact that only three Presidents in modern history have actually cut tax rates and it is tax rate cuts that stimulate economic activity. I know this is hard for you to understand
    Actually, that is hard for most economists to understand, which is why you can't back up that statement with the work of any credible economist. Your statement is backed up by nothing but your personal impression (and granted too many others that operate not from real command of economics, but their impressions) that this is so.

    Moreover, even if so, its not a linear truism. In other words cutting the marginal tax rate from 90 to 70 is not going to yield the same result as cutting it from 70 to 50 or 50 to 35 or cutting it from 39.6. Moreover, cutting the highest marginal rate on those that do not spend the money (the very wealthy) will not yield the same result as cutting it on those that do (the lower and middle classes).

    Moreover, what may have worked in one circumstance does not work in every circumstance. The Fed cutting the fed funds rate had diminishing returns of effect and now actually has created a bit of a problem: banks borrowing from the federal government at no cost and investing funds where they get the upside and have no risk (this was part of the meltdown of 2008 and is still going on).

    Your tax cut mantra may be a pleasant melody to you (and certainly puts many of us to sleep), but at best, it shows a lack of sophistication and at worst, is simply wrong.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 04-13-14 at 02:23 PM.

  10. #660
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    Re: Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

    upsideguy;1063147657

    Actually, that is hard for most economists to understand, which is why you can't back up that statement with the work of any credible economist. Its only your impression that this is so.

    Moreover, even if so, its not a linear truism. In other words cutting the marginal tax rate from 90 to 70 is not going to yield the same result as cutting it from 70 to 50 or 50 to 35 or cutting it from 39.6. Moreover, cutting the highest marginal rate on those that do not spend the money (the very wealthy) will not yield the same result as cutting it on those that do (the lower and middle classes).
    Your opinion noted, since marginal tax rates were cut only three times in modern history there isn't a very good sample to make that conclusion many economists make but the one thing that does show up is incredible job creation and it is hard to argue logic and common sense that more spendable income affects economic activity and makes it conducive to economic growth which leads to job creation. Regardless of the rate cut having more spendable income benefits a consumer driven economy.

    The argument about the rich is nothing more than liberal bs. people keeping more of what they earn is only a bad thing to liberals who want more govt. spending. What someone does with their money is nobody's business yet liberals want to make that a bad thing. whether a rich person spends their money, invests their money, saves their money, or pays off bills it helps the economy.

    Please tell me why anyone would support more money going to a 3.9 trillion dollar Federal Govt? Where is the effort to cut spending?

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