• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Obamacare enrollment hits 7 million

You're absolutely wrong. Businesses leave all the time due to the tax environment. It's part of what drives the offshoring. YOU made the incorrect statement that they don't.

I believe they say that, which is not equal to that being the reason. As most get out of paying taxers, and I did link that, it's highly unlikely that would be a real issue. Wages and healthcare are much more likely to be reasons.
 
Wait! Aren't "Corporations PEOPLE my friend"? The reality is, some companies DO still value their employees, but they are becoming more and more scarce. Many companies have adopted the "maximize profits" by paying as little as possible model.

I'm not your friend. Corporations are not people, they are managed by people. Maximizing profits has always been the goal of corporations for as long as they have existed.

They have lost all self-pride and respect for their employees. Fortunately, for me, I am treated very well. I just wish I could say that same for others.

I disagree with your comments about pride and respect. I think your situation is probably the norm not the exception. Companies that don't handle people well don't last very long.
 
I'm not your friend. Corporations are not people, they are managed by people. Maximizing profits has always been the goal of corporations for as long as they have existed.



I disagree with your comments about pride and respect. I think your situation is probably the norm not the exception. Companies that don't handle people well don't last very long.

I WISH that you were correct. That's not the case. In today's multi-national corporation world, US manufacturing jobs have been outsourced....NOT because people from other countries produce a superior product.....NOT because companies couldn't make a profit manufacturing in America....but simply because the company could make MORE profit by exploiting foreign workers, something that the laws of the United States do not allow. Companies were not content to make millions in profit, they have to make billions in profit. It has become a world of too much is still not enough and the American worker is paying the price. What we need is a President and a congress that will reign in these corporations and look out for the American people. Unfortunately in today's political world, too many congressmen have the corporation in their back pocket or lack the backbone to stand up for what is right.
 
Again, that is your opinion and of course that opinion that justifies in the liberal mind the raising of taxes. You apparently don't understand what goes into labor costs on the financial statement nor do you understand why businesses are moving out of high tax blue states and moving to low tax red states, the cost of labor goes down and for every dollar a business cuts in expenses that is a dollar to their bottom line.

I thought you'd appreciate this:

ut is that because the company is engaged in some type of corporate tax dodge, as Obama likes to pretend? Uh, no, it seems that Americans are using less paper as they transition to a digital economy, while there is a growing demand for paper in developing countries.

Should International Paper stay land-locked — or insourced, to use the president’s term — to avoid the extra taxes and accusations of being unpatriotic?

Yes, some U.S. companies produce their products overseas in order to take advantage of lower labor costs — i.e., comparative advantage. But that means U.S. consumers get cheaper prices. You’ll notice no one complained when gasoline prices recently fell, even though much of that oil is produced overseas. The public was elated because lower gas prices means more money left over to spend on other wants and needs. Well, the exact same reasoning applies to manufactured goods, raw materials and other products and services that U.S. consumers buy for less because of lower foreign costs.

Companies 'Outsource' Because That's Where The Sales Are - Forbes

Notice taxes are not the reason.
 
No, the goal of corporations has always been to be successful by being profitable. Maximizing profits was just one of the ways to accomplish this means.

Many corporations have to forgo maximizing profits in order to prolong continued success thru R&D, advertising, recruiting of talent and increasing salaries and dividends.
 
You're absolutely wrong. Businesses leave all the time due to the tax environment. It's part of what drives the offshoring. YOU made the incorrect statement that they don't.

But many economists and tax experts see no direct link (PDF) between these issues. "The connection between tax policy and jobs is pretty tenuous. The proposals are more political," says director of New York University's International Tax Program David Rosenbloom.

Outsourcing Jobs and Taxes - Council on Foreign Relations
 
I WISH that you were correct. That's not the case. In today's multi-national corporation world, US manufacturing jobs have been outsourced....NOT because people from other countries produce a superior product.....NOT because companies couldn't make a profit manufacturing in America....but simply because the company could make MORE profit by exploiting foreign workers, something that the laws of the United States do not allow. Companies were not content to make millions in profit, they have to make billions in profit. It has become a world of too much is still not enough and the American worker is paying the price. What we need is a President and a congress that will reign in these corporations and look out for the American people. Unfortunately in today's political world, too many congressmen have the corporation in their back pocket or lack the backbone to stand up for what is right.

Perhaps one day the educators will figure out how valuable it would be to teach a basic course on capitalist economics in our schools. Getting information from liberal anti-business sources isn't exactly the same thing. Take care.
 
Perhaps one day the educators will figure out how valuable it would be to teach a basic course on capitalist economics in our schools. Getting information from liberal anti-business sources isn't exactly the same thing. Take care.

LOL....are you serious? I took several economic courses in college. I understand statistics and economic theory quite well thank you. The reality is the concept of "supply and demand" is but one theory of economic study and it rarely exists in reality. Perhaps you need to take a basic economics course and not rely on the rhetoric and propoganda that you have apparently swallowed without much thought.
 
LOL....are you serious? I took several economic courses in college. I understand statistics and economic theory quite well thank you. The reality is the concept of "supply and demand" is but one theory of economic study and it rarely exists in reality. Perhaps you need to take a basic economics course and not rely on the rhetoric and propoganda that you have apparently swallowed without much thought.

Best of luck to you.
 
Stop ranting and respond only to what is said. You're still off point. Focus. I'm making no judgment yet about business. Only making clear that they are not leaving due to taxes. So stop ranting and pay attention to the point.

Now you focus, it would be absolutely irresponsible for any company and CEO not to look for ways to lower expenses and taxes are part of the equation. You seem to believe that if a company pays an employee $8 and hour that is the extent of the cost for that employee. State, local, and FICA taxes along with any benefits are ignored by you. Stop being so hard headed and think for a change

Maybe this will help but doubt it

How Much Does An Employee Cost
 
I believe they say that, which is not equal to that being the reason. As most get out of paying taxers, and I did link that, it's highly unlikely that would be a real issue. Wages and healthcare are much more likely to be reasons.

Neither economists or people like you pay for employee expenses therefore you have no idea what you are talking about. Bet you don't think your benefits are part of the cost to the employer either? I don't understand people like you who believe they are right on every issue. There is a reason businesses are moving to TX and off shoring. People like who have never run a business will never figure it out but just a hint, it has to do with costs and that includes all the costs associated with an employee
 
I thought you'd appreciate this:

ut is that because the company is engaged in some type of corporate tax dodge, as Obama likes to pretend? Uh, no, it seems that Americans are using less paper as they transition to a digital economy, while there is a growing demand for paper in developing countries.

Should International Paper stay land-locked — or insourced, to use the president’s term — to avoid the extra taxes and accusations of being unpatriotic?

Yes, some U.S. companies produce their products overseas in order to take advantage of lower labor costs — i.e., comparative advantage. But that means U.S. consumers get cheaper prices. You’ll notice no one complained when gasoline prices recently fell, even though much of that oil is produced overseas. The public was elated because lower gas prices means more money left over to spend on other wants and needs. Well, the exact same reasoning applies to manufactured goods, raw materials and other products and services that U.S. consumers buy for less because of lower foreign costs.

Companies 'Outsource' Because That's Where The Sales Are - Forbes

Notice taxes are not the reason.

That certainly is a factor, growth and sales, Keep ignoring the fact that for every dollar a business cuts in expenses that is a dollar added to the bottomline profit. Payroll taxes, SS taxes, unemployment taxes, local and state taxes all add to an employees burden along with benefits. Don't tell me taxes don't play a role because you are dead wrong and that is why businesses are moving to TX.

You think that when a business moves to TX their pay structure changes? No, there labor costs in general change because there is no state income taxes or other business taxes.
 
Now you focus, it would be absolutely irresponsible for any company and CEO not to look for ways to lower expenses and taxes are part of the equation. You seem to believe that if a company pays an employee $8 and hour that is the extent of the cost for that employee. State, local, and FICA taxes along with any benefits are ignored by you. Stop being so hard headed and think for a change

Maybe this will help but doubt it

How Much Does An Employee Cost

Nope. It doesn't address the issue we're discussing.
 
Neither economists or people like you pay for employee expenses therefore you have no idea what you are talking about. Bet you don't think your benefits are part of the cost to the employer either? I don't understand people like you who believe they are right on every issue. There is a reason businesses are moving to TX and off shoring. People like who have never run a business will never figure it out but just a hint, it has to do with costs and that includes all the costs associated with an employee

Which is not the point. You're ranting and not addressing the point.
 
I believe they say that, which is not equal to that being the reason. As most get out of paying taxers, and I did link that, it's highly unlikely that would be a real issue. Wages and healthcare are much more likely to be reasons.

Wow, too much koolaid for you. Most businesses pay their taxes, they don't "get out of it". As business taxes rise businesses do indeed consider their options. One of those for certain companies is to offshore. Outsourcing is NOT a problem, offshoring is. You can see it locally. Many cities and localities have this problem.

Example: Beaverton continually raised it's business taxes. The businesses that could moved to nearby Tualitin where the business taxes were at an all time low. Tualitin's local governement recognised this and doubled down by promising not to raise theirs. So now Beaverton is a bedroom community and Tualitin is a business center.
 
That certainly is a factor, growth and sales, Keep ignoring the fact that for every dollar a business cuts in expenses that is a dollar added to the bottomline profit. Payroll taxes, SS taxes, unemployment taxes, local and state taxes all add to an employees burden along with benefits. Don't tell me taxes don't play a role because you are dead wrong and that is why businesses are moving to TX.

You think that when a business moves to TX their pay structure changes? No, there labor costs in general change because there is no state income taxes or other business taxes.

2. Cost Economics: Different dynamics drive repatriation of manufacturing, as compared to services. A fundamental difference is the ratio of labor cost as input. As any student of economics will attest, in manufacturing, investment of capital and automation can replace labor costs to a large extent. Services, however, are different. Typical IT, BPO and call center operations have the majority of their costs tied to labor (~80-90% of total cost).

As the wage gap between high-cost countries and popular offshoring locations has remained significant over time, and is unlikely to close anytime soon, we expect to see a preponderance of outbound, versus inbound, traffic in the services sector. And this trend is likely to be supported by the strengthening of some foreign exchange rates.

7 Key Factors Driving the Offshoring of Services | Supplier Relationships content from IndustryWeek

taxes not listed here either.
 
Wow, too much koolaid for you. Most businesses pay their taxes, they don't "get out of it". As business taxes rise businesses do indeed consider their options. One of those for certain companies is to offshore. Outsourcing is NOT a problem, offshoring is. You can see it locally. Many cities and localities have this problem.

Example: Beaverton continually raised it's business taxes. The businesses that could moved to nearby Tualitin where the business taxes were at an all time low. Tualitin's local governement recognised this and doubled down by promising not to raise theirs. So now Beaverton is a bedroom community and Tualitin is a business center.

Those who actually outsource or offshore don't. And if you do as I have been doing (and linking a few) and look at the reasons actually for outsourcing or offshoring, taxes are rarely list. If so, usually low down the list. It's the cost of the employee (salary and benefits) that tops the list.
 
2. Cost Economics: Different dynamics drive repatriation of manufacturing, as compared to services. A fundamental difference is the ratio of labor cost as input. As any student of economics will attest, in manufacturing, investment of capital and automation can replace labor costs to a large extent. Services, however, are different. Typical IT, BPO and call center operations have the majority of their costs tied to labor (~80-90% of total cost).

As the wage gap between high-cost countries and popular offshoring locations has remained significant over time, and is unlikely to close anytime soon, we expect to see a preponderance of outbound, versus inbound, traffic in the services sector. And this trend is likely to be supported by the strengthening of some foreign exchange rates.

7 Key Factors Driving the Offshoring of Services | Supplier Relationships content from IndustryWeek

taxes not listed here either.

This is absurd, I ran a business, I understand business expenses and cost, you don't, nor do apparently economists that you want to post. You are wrong and simply cannot admit it. Margins are so small in so many businesses that any chance of cutting expenses is going to be taken. Live with it and ignore reality for that is what liberals always do
 
Those who actually outsource or offshore don't. And if you do as I have been doing (and linking a few) and look at the reasons actually for outsourcing or offshoring, taxes are rarely list. If so, usually low down the list. It's the cost of the employee (salary and benefits) that tops the list.

Do you know the difference between offshoring and outsourcing? Obviously not.
 
This is absurd, I ran a business, I understand business expenses and cost, you don't, nor do apparently economists that you want to post. You are wrong and simply cannot admit it. Margins are so small in so many businesses that any chance of cutting expenses is going to be taken. Live with it and ignore reality for that is what liberals always do

Except that the reality is that profits and margins are at all time highs and there is certainly room for concessions to labor. Greed is not a business plan.
 
This is absurd, I ran a business, I understand business expenses and cost, you don't, nor do apparently economists that you want to post. You are wrong and simply cannot admit it. Margins are so small in so many businesses that any chance of cutting expenses is going to be taken. Live with it and ignore reality for that is what liberals always do

yes, you know how to rant, but you're not a major company, you didn't run a major company, and you don't seem to know what goes into their decisions. It is being clearly stated in one link after another that taxes are not the main reason.
 
Do you know the difference between offshoring and outsourcing? Obviously not.

Actually I do. And both come into play. I actually linked an article explaining the differences for you earlier.

But you are still just ranting and not addressing the issue. Do I need to say it again?
 
Do you know the difference between offshoring and outsourcing? Obviously not.

Oh, and another part of this healthcare issue:

Some economists say these ballooning dollar figures place a heavy burden on companies doing business in the United States and can put them at a substantial competitive disadvantage in the international marketplace. For large multinational corporations, footing healthcare costs presents an enormous expense. General Motors, for instance, covers more than 1.1 million employees and former employees, and the company says it spends roughly $5 billion on healthcare expenses annually. GM says healthcare costs add between $1,500 and $2,000 to the sticker price of every automobile it makes. Health benefits for unionized auto workers became a central issue derailing the 2008 congressional push to provide a financial bailout to GM and its ailing Detroit rival, Chrysler.

Healthcare Costs and U.S. Competitiveness - Council on Foreign Relations
 
Back
Top Bottom