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Thread: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Yes, that MSNBC article is a partisan attack on the HF...but look again at the references. Are the references simply partisan hack pieces...or are they good, solid info?

    And while O-care was not itself directly crafted by the HF, the HF did come up with most of the major concepts that enable Obamacare to work. Remember, the same advisers who designed Romneycare also designed O-care...and if you'll look around, there was no great conservative hue and cry in Massachusetts about "government-run health care" at the time. Conservatives only started to raise hell about what would become Obamacare when his administration started pushing it for health care reform (after the CBO pointed out that single-payer would actually cost us some tax dollars).
    One conservative with The Heritage Foundation proposing the idea of an individual mandate in 1989 doesn't have anything to do with conservatives (such as myself) objecting to the idea of the ACA, Glen.

    And I don't live in MA, so why would I or any conservative who lives outside of MA have any objection to "Romneycare"?

    But again, the link you provided just reiterates what we already know.

    Stuart Butler gave a lecture in 1989 and suggested an individual mandate. What does that have to do with conservatives in 2009/2010?

    Besides the individual mandate which was suggested by Butler in 1989, what are the other "major concepts" of the ACA that the Heritage Foundation suggested, and were the first to suggest?

  2. #812
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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    One conservative with The Heritage Foundation proposing the idea of an individual mandate in 1989 doesn't have anything to do with conservatives (such as myself) objecting to the idea of the ACA, Glen.
    We were discussing where the idea first came from, right?

    And I don't live in MA, so why would I or any conservative who lives outside of MA have any objection to "Romneycare"?
    I didn't say anything at all about your personal opinion on Romneycare...but are conservatives in one part of the nation really so different from other parts of the nation? Or is it just those 'Massachusetts conservatives' who were all screwed up? And seeing how the most powerful Republican in the nation during the Clinton years - Newt Gingrich - was all for the Heritage Foundation's ideas, well, I do think his words can be taken as an indication of what most conservatives thought at the time.

    But again, the link you provided just reiterates what we already know.

    Stuart Butler gave a lecture in 1989 and suggested an individual mandate. What does that have to do with conservatives in 2009/2010?
    No, the article links to more than that.

    [/\QUOTE]Besides the individual mandate which was suggested by Butler in 1989, what are the other "major concepts" of the ACA that the Heritage Foundation suggested, and were the first to suggest?[/QUOTE]

    In the same article he proposed (in so many words) the expansion of Medicaid:

    a new index of eligibility would be developed to link Medicaid coverage to poverty instead of welfare. This is an important distinction, because many poor families struggling to keep off welfare currently risk enormous and uncovered medical bills because they are not eligible, or do not seek, to go on to the welfare rolls.

    And in a link from the article he says:

    First, a conservative proposal must change the political debate. It must put the liberals on the de- fensive, by grabbing the initiative and forcing the debate down a very different path from that pre- ferred by the Left. Anything short of this will mean that we shall merely lose slowly. The second principle is that the conservative alternative system must be based solidly on the foun- dations of a market economy-consumer choice, competit i on, private contracts, and market prices. The function of government-if anything at all-should only be to set broad rules of the "game," and maybe to finance the minimum health care services of those who cannot afford to obtain these by any other means. T h e third principle is that we should create a system which does not on balance increase govern- ment, either in scale or degree of intrusion.

    See the boldface? Sound familiar? What is O-care doing but expanding Medicaid, and using an individual mandate to ensure that everyone (not otherwise covered by Medicaid or Medicare) is covered by PRIVATE insurance?

    Look, TB, it drives most conservatives nuts to think that the Dems took what was originally their idea and ran with it...but we did. And the only way most conservatives can deal with it is to try to deny that they never, ever had anything to do with it in the first place.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    a new index of eligibility would be developed to link Medicaid coverage to poverty instead of welfare

    He didn't suggest Medicaid expansion, Glen, in so many words or otherwise.

    He, as I've been saying all along, suggested an individual mandate in his lecture in 1989. That's all. And the Democrats & Liberals have latched on to that and run with it for years as if it means something. Why? Keep in mind this was one person giving a lecture.

    I oppose the ACA as a conservative, and it's not solely because of the individual mandate. I do oppose the individual mandate that Butler suggested, and I freely express that unapologetically. Was there a law passed or some rule that says I have to agree with everything that every Conservative lecturer has ever said in the history of conservatism?

    You keep calling it "their" idea, by the way. Stuart Butler is one person, so the correct words you meant to type are "the Dems took what was originally his idea and ran with it".

    And while that's fascinating and all that stuff, what's the relevance anyway of Stuart Butler anyway?

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    That's the one.
    I see no demographic info on page 2, or even the word "note"
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    sangha are you looking at the 2nd page of that PDF or are you looking at the page with the number 2 on the bottom?

    Look at the 2nd page of the PDF immediately after the cover page. I believe you misunderstood what I was saying when I said page 2. I meant the 2nd page. My apologies.

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    sangha are you looking at the 2nd page of that PDF or are you looking at the page with the number 2 on the bottom?

    Look at the 2nd page of the PDF immediately after the cover page. I believe you misunderstood what I was saying when I said page 2. I meant the 2nd page. My apologies.
    I was looking Page 2. When I look at the 2nd page, I still don't see what you describe. I see a page with text that begins with "The Heritage Foundation was established in 1973". Looking through the entire PDF, I do not see what you are seeing. I see no description of demographics
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I was looking Page 2. When I look at the 2nd page, I still don't see what you describe. I see a page with text that begins with "The Heritage Foundation was established in 1973". Looking through the entire PDF, I do not see what you are seeing. I see no description of demographics
    At the bottom of that page that you are looking at. Right above the name & address of The Heritage Foundation (which is their demographic information). It is in italics and starts with the word "Note".

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    At the bottom of that page that you are looking at. Right above the name & address of The Heritage Foundation (which is their demographic information). It is in italics and starts with the word "Note".
    I see *that*, but that does not support your claim that the only part of ACA that the Heritage Foundation supported was the individual mandate.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  9. #819
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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    I see *that*, but that does not support your claim that the only part of ACA that the Heritage Foundation supported was the individual mandate.
    My claim, which that supports, is that the opinions in the lecture were only those of Stuart Butler and not The Heritage Foundation, hence his disclaimer. My pointing that out to you wasn't to suggest that "the only part of the ACA that The Heritage Foundation supported was the individual mandate" for a number of reasons:

    1. I never said anything close to that - I said the suggestion of an individual mandate was Butler's and Butler's alone, not The Heritage Foundation
    2. I never recall hearing that The Heritage Foundation supported anything in the ACA - can you link where The Heritage Foundation said they supported the individual mandate in the ACA?

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    My claim, which that supports, is that the opinions in the lecture were only those of Stuart Butler and not The Heritage Foundation, hence his disclaimer. My pointing that out to you wasn't to suggest that "the only part of the ACA that The Heritage Foundation supported was the individual mandate" for a number of reasons:

    1. I never said anything close to that - I said the suggestion of an individual mandate was Butler's and Butler's alone, not The Heritage Foundation
    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It was a man named Stuart Butler from The Heritage Foundation, Glen, and he only suggested the individual mandate. Obamacare isn't just about the individual mandate, is it?
    No, you never said anything close to that!

    2. I never recall hearing that The Heritage Foundation supported anything in the ACA - can you link where The Heritage Foundation said they supported the individual mandate in the ACA?
    I don't recall hearing anyone say "The HF supported something in the ACA". The discussion has been about how the idea for the individual mandate originated from the Heritage Foundation
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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