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Thread: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Look above the demographic information on the bottom of page 2. The first word is "Note".
    Are we looking at the same document? Here's the link I'm looking at

    http://healthcarereform.procon.org/s..._americans.pdf

    I see no demographic info on page 2, or even the word "note"
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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Are we looking at the same document? Here's the link I'm looking at

    http://healthcarereform.procon.org/s..._americans.pdf

    I see no demographic info on page 2, or even the word "note"
    That's the one.

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    Thank you for links, Glen, but they don't support your post:

    1. You'll find that most of the standards were suggested by the Heritage foundation when they first proposed what we today call Obamacare.

    The first link (from 2006), while interesting, doesn't validate the above. Was what he suggested incorporated into the ACA?

    The link showing that GHWB advocated the idea of an individual mandate doesn't have anything to do with The Heritage Foundation.
    The first link DOES support health insurance exchanges. The fact that the health insurance exchanges of today aren't ABSOLUTELY 100% PRECISELY what the author of that article envisioned does not negate the fact that he supported the idea of health insurance exchanges.

    And you should look again at that page 25 - it says that the proposals come from (among others) "The Heritage Foundation Butler 1992".

    Face it, guy - the most important parts of Obamacare - the parts that make it viable and workable and available to all American citizens - came from the CONSERVATIVES. We took your boys' idea and made it work...and because we are the ones making it work, your side hates us for it and wants to deny all connection to it.
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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    The first link DOES support health insurance exchanges. The fact that the health insurance exchanges of today aren't ABSOLUTELY 100% PRECISELY what the author of that article envisioned does not negate the fact that he supported the idea of health insurance exchanges.

    And you should look again at that page 25 - it says that the proposals come from (among others) "The Heritage Foundation Butler 1992".

    Face it, guy - the most important parts of Obamacare - the parts that make it viable and workable and available to all American citizens - came from the CONSERVATIVES. We took your boys' idea and made it work...and because we are the ones making it work, your side hates us for it and wants to deny all connection to it.
    I'm not a guy, I'm a girl.

    What he suggested is not what ultimately happened.

    And by the way, are you now crediting the HF with being the first entity to come up with the idea of an exchange of any kind....meaning that the Democrats were only copying HF concepts?

    Rather than have to decide whether to pay for full coverage or not, employers could make defined contributions of any size to the exchange. Moreover, employers could also enable employees, including those working part-time and on contract, to buy health insurance with pre-tax dollars. Under a Section 125 plan, any premium payments made by workers, even part-time workers or contract employees, would be 100 percent tax-free. This is especially important for workers in firms that require them to pay part of the health insurance premium. Employees, not employers, would buy the health care coverage with pre-tax dollars, would own their own health plans, and would take them from job to job without the loss of the generous tax benefits of conventional employer-based coverage

    Are employers giving their employees pre-tax dollars to buy insurance on exchanges?

    Do employers give their employees a choice of which of all of the national plans to buy?

    The best option is a health insurance market exchange. A properly designed health insurance exchange would function as a single market for all kinds of health insurance plans, including traditional insurance plans, health maintenance organizations, health savings accounts, and other new coverage options that might emerge in response to consumer demand. In principle, it would function like a stock exchange, which is a single market for all varieties of stocks and reduces the costs of buying, selling, and trading stocks. For the same reasons, other types of market transactions are also centralized, such as farmers' markets, single locations where shoppers can purchase a variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, and Carmax, where consumers can choose from among all kinds of makes and models of automobiles

    If I live in California, can I buy from any company in any state, or am I only buying the offerings available in my state?

    And besides the individual mandate idea, which came from Butler in 1989, not 1992 (I posed the link so you can read his lecture publication), what other ideas did the HF provide that went into the ACA specifically?

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    By the way, the reference on page 25 to Butler in 1992 was referencing Butler's 1992 idea to give tax credits for buying insurance, saying that the tax codes were negatively impacting insurance and healthcare, and the tax code needed to be reformed. It wasn't about the individual mandate.

    Did the tax code get re-written in the ACA?

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    I'm not a guy, I'm a girl.

    What he suggested is not what ultimately happened.

    And by the way, are you now crediting the HF with being the first entity to come up with the idea of an exchange of any kind....meaning that the Democrats were only copying HF concepts?

    Rather than have to decide whether to pay for full coverage or not, employers could make defined contributions of any size to the exchange. Moreover, employers could also enable employees, including those working part-time and on contract, to buy health insurance with pre-tax dollars. Under a Section 125 plan, any premium payments made by workers, even part-time workers or contract employees, would be 100 percent tax-free. This is especially important for workers in firms that require them to pay part of the health insurance premium. Employees, not employers, would buy the health care coverage with pre-tax dollars, would own their own health plans, and would take them from job to job without the loss of the generous tax benefits of conventional employer-based coverage

    Are employers giving their employees pre-tax dollars to buy insurance on exchanges?

    Do employers give their employees a choice of which of all of the national plans to buy?

    The best option is a health insurance market exchange. A properly designed health insurance exchange would function as a single market for all kinds of health insurance plans, including traditional insurance plans, health maintenance organizations, health savings accounts, and other new coverage options that might emerge in response to consumer demand. In principle, it would function like a stock exchange, which is a single market for all varieties of stocks and reduces the costs of buying, selling, and trading stocks. For the same reasons, other types of market transactions are also centralized, such as farmers' markets, single locations where shoppers can purchase a variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, and Carmax, where consumers can choose from among all kinds of makes and models of automobiles

    If I live in California, can I buy from any company in any state, or am I only buying the offerings available in my state?

    And besides the individual mandate idea, which came from Butler in 1989, not 1992 (I posed the link so you can read his lecture publication), what other ideas did the HF provide that went into the ACA specifically?
    First off - my apologies - no girl deserves to be called 'guy'. Y'all are better than that.

    That said, while the health insurance exchanges we have today through the ACA accomplishes its goals through different means than how the HF guy proposed, it's STILL a health insurance exchange. Your argument is like saying that the Tesla's not the same as, say, a Dodge Challenger. The mechanics by which they work are wildly different...but they accomplish largely the same goal.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    First off - my apologies - no girl deserves to be called 'guy'. Y'all are better than that.

    That said, while the health insurance exchanges we have today through the ACA accomplishes its goals through different means than how the HF guy proposed, it's STILL a health insurance exchange. Your argument is like saying that the Tesla's not the same as, say, a Dodge Challenger. The mechanics by which they work are wildly different...but they accomplish largely the same goal.
    No worries on the gender thing. It seems to happen to me a lot. I thought that pink thing in my avatar would help.

    I don't know who first proposed the idea of a national insurance exchange, Glen. I think it predates 2006...don't you? He proposed a form of exchanges in 2006 which in my opinion, would be better than the way they were ultimately set up in the ACA (again, that is merely my opinion, and not based on any real analysis). But I don't believe any one of us can say with any level of honesty that insurance exchanges were a Heritage Foundation idea.

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    No worries on the gender thing. It seems to happen to me a lot. I thought that pink thing in my avatar would help.

    I don't know who first proposed the idea of a national insurance exchange, Glen. I think it predates 2006...don't you? He proposed a form of exchanges in 2006 which in my opinion, would be better than the way they were ultimately set up in the ACA (again, that is merely my opinion, and not based on any real analysis). But I don't believe any one of us can say with any level of honesty that insurance exchanges were a Heritage Foundation idea.
    Here's a good history of how the main parts of Obamacare were first proposed.
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Here's a good history of how the main parts of Obamacare were first proposed.
    First off, that's a partisan attack piece on Heritage. Secondly, it reiterates everything that we've already talked about - Butler, the individual mandate, and so on.

    Do we have anything that answers the question of when the concept of exchanges was first introduced.

    Are you suggesting that "Obamacare" is a law that was crafted by The Heritage Foundation?

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    Re: Obamacare tops 6 million signups [W:263:617]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    First off, that's a partisan attack piece on Heritage. Secondly, it reiterates everything that we've already talked about - Butler, the individual mandate, and so on.

    Do we have anything that answers the question of when the concept of exchanges was first introduced.

    Are you suggesting that "Obamacare" is a law that was crafted by The Heritage Foundation?
    Yes, that MSNBC article is a partisan attack on the HF...but look again at the references. Are the references simply partisan hack pieces...or are they good, solid info?

    And while O-care was not itself directly crafted by the HF, the HF did come up with most of the major concepts that enable Obamacare to work. Remember, the same advisers who designed Romneycare also designed O-care...and if you'll look around, there was no great conservative hue and cry in Massachusetts about "government-run health care" at the time. Conservatives only started to raise hell about what would become Obamacare when his administration started pushing it for health care reform (after the CBO pointed out that single-payer would actually cost us some tax dollars).
    To do evil, a human being must first of all believe that what hes doing is good" - Solzhenitsyn

    "...with the terrorists, you have to take out their families." - Donald Trump

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