Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

[Threegoofs]

I think it's ridiculous. They aren't paid employees. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Does this mean no more scholarships? What exactly do they hope to accomplish with unionizing I wonder? It's not like they get benefits or wages. It's all quite confusing IMO.

Classic.

This sums up a big chunk of postings from DP Conservatives.

The nugget being:

"I don't understand it, so it must be bad/wrong".

 

[ChrisL]

Classic.

This sums up a big chunk of postings from DP Conservatives.

The nugget being:

"I don't understand it, so it must be bad/wrong".

I'm simply asking questions. You obviously don't have the answers, so move along little doggy! :lol:

 

[ludin]

Classic.

This sums up a big chunk of postings from DP Conservatives.

The nugget being:

"I don't understand it, so it must be bad/wrong".

which means you don't understand what we are talking about.

1. Currently all college athletes are considered students. therefore any scholarship they receive is for their education which is non-taxable under IRS guidelines.
2. If they are considered employee's then (athletes) any compensation they receive is considered income by the IRS. this includes scholarships, room and board, food, travel, training, weight room etc ...

3. if they want to avoid those taxes then the school will have to start charging them for the use of the facilities.
athletics departments are considered non-profits as well. as any money generated goes back to the school.

the average student athlete earns 100-120k+ in compensation depending on the school.

what you will see happen is college stop offering scholarships to kids. that means a very large drop in the number of kids more so kids that
never would get into college to begin with an opportunity to better themselves.

so please tell me what jr is going to do when for the first year in college football he gets a W2 for 60k and has no money to pay the tax?

 

[Threegoofs]

I'm simply asking questions. You obviously don't have the answers, so move along little doggy! :lol:

I dont know if you are aware, but you are connected to one of the most incredible research tools imaginable. Literally, within a few seconds, you could get hundreds of articles and papers describing the nuances of college athletics, how the players are exploited by the colleges, the revenue that the NCAA gets, the outcomes of the athlete/students, etc.

But your post is summed up as "This is ridiculous".

I just thought it was a perfect little microcosm into a Conservative mind. You seemingly don't claim to be Conservative, so you shouldn't take offense, right?

 

[ChrisL]

I dont know if you are aware, but you are connected to one of the most incredible research tools imaginable. Literally, within a few seconds, you could get hundreds of articles and papers describing the nuances of college athletics, how the players are exploited by the colleges, the revenue that the NCAA gets, the outcomes of the athlete/students, etc.

But your post is summed up as "This is ridiculous".

I just thought it was a perfect little microcosm into a Conservative mind. You seemingly don't claim to be Conservative, so you shouldn't take offense, right?

No, it doesn't make sense that non-employees would form a union, especially when a lot of athletes are there on a scholarship, and since college sports is NOT a career and is voluntary, I don't see how they can make demands.

Besides, it's going to be appealed, and hopefully they will see how ridiculous it is. If you don't like the demands of your sports team, then quit.

 

[Threegoofs]

which means you don't understand what we are talking about.

1. Currently all college athletes are considered students. therefore any scholarship they receive is for their education which is non-taxable under IRS guidelines.
2. If they are considered employee's then (athletes) any compensation they receive is considered income by the IRS. this includes scholarships, room and board, food, travel, training, weight room etc ...

3. if they want to avoid those taxes then the school will have to start charging them for the use of the facilities.
athletics departments are considered non-profits as well. as any money generated goes back to the school.

the average student athlete earns 100-120k+ in compensation depending on the school.

what you will see happen is college stop offering scholarships to kids. that means a very large drop in the number of kids more so kids that
never would get into college to begin with an opportunity to better themselves.

so please tell me what jr is going to do when for the first year in college football he gets a W2 for 60k and has no money to pay the tax?

He doesn't, because it will never happen. If it ends up being tax deductible (and I doubt that it will - if I recall, I was on a tuition waiver while I worked at the University hospital as a student and never paid taxes on it and I was certainly an employee) then the college will just have to gross-up their salaries to cover it, because the value of the scholarship will drop by whatever percentage it is taxed on. It will cost the Universities more money, of course.

And facilities would certainly NOT be taxable. A gym is required for athletes to do their job. Thats what they do. To charge them for gym time would be as silly as saying their travel is taxable, or the coaches salary because they teach them, or the stadium is because they play in it.

 

[Erod]

Classic.

This sums up a big chunk of postings from DP Conservatives.

The nugget being:

"I don't understand it, so it must be bad/wrong".

No, you apparently don't understand it.

With the O'Bannon case pending, as well as the coming concussion lawsuits, this ruling will basically make college sports too rich for the blood of the vast majorities of universities.

This ultimately leads to open compensation, which will turn college athletics into a legal bidding war for players far beyond the corruption that occurs in the shadows now. Through sponsorships and other means, a booster will have an unlimited means of providing compensation to highly recruited athletes that is far beyond what the average player in the NFL makes.

That will create a huge disparity between schools, between sports, and even between players on the same team. Most schools will opt to dissolve their athletics department altogether, especially when the Title IX advocates start squealing for equal pay and treatment for women's athletes.

The only way to stave this off is to double tuition and fees for everybody else. How's that sound?

I think this will result in an AAU-like minor league system (which is beyond corrupt), and college sports will become a game for private industry. In other words, purely professional only.

This will trickle into the high schools, and amateur sports will be truly dead.

 

[ludin]

I think it's ridiculous. They aren't paid employees. It doesn't make any sense to me at all. Does this mean no more scholarships? What exactly do they hope to accomplish with unionizing I wonder? It's not like they get benefits or wages. It's all quite confusing IMO.

you are correct they are not employee's numerous court rulings have upheld this and the labor board has ignored it. that is typical pro union for you. when this gets into the court system it will get struck down like i has before.

as for scholarships that is correct. colleges could simply not offer scholarships. if you want to play football for a college then you will be a real student athlete. you will have to pay your own tuition and all the other expenses that come with it. you will not be giving anything in return for playing.

i don't know what they hope for i guess they feel like getting a huge tax bill at the end of every year for all the compensation they received.

 

[ChrisL]

No, you apparently don't understand it.

With the O'Bannon case pending, as well as the coming concussion lawsuits, this ruling will basically make college sports too rich for the blood of the vast majorities of universities.

This ultimately leads to open compensation, which will turn college athletics into a legal bidding war for players far beyond the corruption that occurs in the shadows now. Through sponsorships and other means, a booster will have an unlimited means of providing compensation to highly recruited athletes that is far beyond what the average player in the NFL makes.

That will create a huge disparity between schools, between sports, and even between players on the same team. Most schools will opt to dissolve their athletics department altogether, especially when the Title IX advocates start squealing for equal pay and treatment for women's athletes.

The only way to stave this off is to double tuition and fees for everybody else. How's that sound?

I think this will result in an AAU-like minor league system (which is beyond corrupt), and college sports will become a game for private industry. In other words, purely professional only.

This will trickle into the high schools, and amateur sports will be truly dead.

you are correct they are not employee's numerous court rulings have upheld this and the labor board has ignored it. that is typical pro union for you. when this gets into the court system it will get struck down like i has before.

as for scholarships that is correct. colleges could simply not offer scholarships. if you want to play football for a college then you will be a real student athlete. you will have to pay your own tuition and all the other expenses that come with it. you will not be giving anything in return for playing.

i don't know what they hope for i guess they feel like getting a huge tax bill at the end of every year for all the compensation they received.

I'm worried. If this sticks, I think it's going to totally ruin college sports. I always thought that it would be an HONOR to compete at the college level on a scholarship because that means you are an amazing athlete and more is expected from you than your typical student. I don't know, I guess these college kids are NOT grateful.

 

[Threegoofs]

No, you apparently don't understand it.

With the O'Bannon case pending, as well as the coming concussion lawsuits, this ruling will basically make college sports too rich for the blood of the vast majorities of universities.

This ultimately leads to open compensation, which will turn college athletics into a legal bidding war for players far beyond the corruption that occurs in the shadows now. Through sponsorships and other means, a booster will have an unlimited means of providing compensation to highly recruited athletes that is far beyond what the average player in the NFL makes.

That will create a huge disparity between schools, between sports, and even between players on the same team. Most schools will opt to dissolve their athletics department altogether, especially when the Title IX advocates start squealing for equal pay and treatment for women's athletes.

The only way to stave this off is to double tuition and fees for everybody else. How's that sound?

I think this will result in an AAU-like minor league system (which is beyond corrupt), and college sports will become a game for private industry. In other words, purely professional only.

This will trickle into the high schools, and amateur sports will be truly dead.

We can only hope.

Amateur sports will not be dead. They will go on in club sports, which is exactly where they should be. If you hold an event and rake in millions, but dont pay the players, its only amateur in the sense that you got suckers to play for you for nothing and keep the gate revenue for yourself.

 

[ludin]

He doesn't, because it will never happen. If it ends up being tax deductible (and I doubt that it will - if I recall, I was on a tuition waiver while I worked at the University hospital as a student and never paid taxes on it and I was certainly an employee) then the college will just have to gross-up their salaries to cover it, because the value of the scholarship will drop by whatever percentage it is taxed on. It will cost the Universities more money, of course.

And facilities would certainly NOT be taxable. A gym is required for athletes to do their job. Thats what they do. To charge them for gym time would be as silly as saying their travel is taxable, or the coaches salary because they teach them, or the stadium is because they play in it.

i posted you 2 links showing the IRS code and you have ignored them. why is that? do you not wish to educate yourself on the subject or is just because it disagrees with your point of view and you don't like it?

right because you were a student on tuition waiver. that is not taxable. however IF YOU ARE AN EMPLOYEE then it is very much taxable as it is considered income.
It also had to do with your field of study and therefore was exempt

yes facilities is income as a 1st class gym membership can cost 50 dollars a month easy. that is income that is taxable.
their travel could be considered income as well it depends on how the IRS views it.

trainers provided are considered compensation and therefore is a taxable item.
you obviously don't understand what taxable compensation is.

please go back and read the articles i posted that explain this to you. if you refuse then i know that you are not interested in any type of intelligent discussion. you can have your opinion and it will just be wrong.

 

[ludin]

I'm worried. If this sticks, I think it's going to totally ruin college sports. I always thought that it would be an HONOR to compete at the college level on a scholarship because that means you are an amazing athlete and more is expected from you than your typical student. I don't know, I guess these college kids are NOT grateful.

no they aren't. they don't feel that getting a free college education and a chance to make it to the pro's to earn millions is enough.
of course the court system has yet to rule and i figure they will overturn the labor board ruling like they have for the past 30 years.

 

[ludin]

We can only hope.

Amateur sports will not be dead. They will go on in club sports, which is exactly where they should be. If you hold an event and rake in millions, but dont pay the players, its only amateur in the sense that you got suckers to play for you for nothing and keep the gate revenue for yourself.

glad to see that you support kids not going to college. very considerate of you.

 

[haymarket]

I don't know: I think colleges have taken extreme advantage of football players without giving them much else save for a scholarship. They put them through the ringer, exhaust them, injure them, celebritize them, center the entire school and all else around them and their sacrifice and success.

They uplift college football too much. It needs to be bumped down a notch or two.

Now whether unionizing will be the appropriate path for this, I'm not sure.

Agreed and well said. I think that this will simply be a tool in the athletes ability to get their just due. It is well overdue and college athletes should be paid as if it were a part time job.

And lets face it - this is NOT about students getting an education as a goodly number of those same athletes would never be able to get into those same universities on pure academic merit.

 

[ChrisL]

no they aren't. they don't feel that getting a free college education and a chance to make it to the pro's to earn millions is enough.
of course the court system has yet to rule and i figure they will overturn the labor board ruling like they have for the past 30 years.

Well believe it or not, I am PRO union for some industries, such as the construction industry. Public sector unions? Not so much, and now I just don't even KNOW what to make of this. I've never heard of such a thing. :roll: I just don't see how this is going to effect college sports in a positive way.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Suit me if we did away with college sports all together and unionizing players is a good step in this direction.

 

[Threegoofs]

glad to see that you support kids not going to college. very considerate of you.

I do. I support kids going to college to study, not play with their balls.

I found this... a study estimates that the annual compensation via scholarship, etc for division 1 basketball players is about #27k per year. And thats for basketball players ON SCHOLARSHIP - which is not all players.

NLRB Ruling Reignites College-Athlete Pay Debate | FiveThirtyEight

Thats a pretty good deal for colleges, considering another study showed that a college player in the NCAA tournament would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a game in a real open market.

 

[Erod]

We can only hope.

Amateur sports will not be dead. They will go on in club sports, which is exactly where they should be. If you hold an event and rake in millions, but dont pay the players, its only amateur in the sense that you got suckers to play for you for nothing and keep the gate revenue for yourself.

As it stands, revenue from athletics holds tuition rates down dramatically.

Getting rid of athletics will cause tuition to skyrocket, too.

 

[Erod]

no they aren't. they don't feel that getting a free college education and a chance to make it to the pro's to earn millions is enough.
of course the court system has yet to rule and i figure they will overturn the labor board ruling like they have for the past 30 years.

This will go to the Court of Appeals, which has three newly Obama-appointed pro-union members. It will be upheld.

 

[Erod]

I do. I support kids going to college to study, not play with their balls.

I found this... a study estimates that the annual compensation via scholarship, etc for division 1 basketball players is about #27k per year. And thats for basketball players ON SCHOLARSHIP - which is not all players.

NLRB Ruling Reignites College-Athlete Pay Debate | FiveThirtyEight

Thats a pretty good deal for colleges, considering another study showed that a college player in the NCAA tournament would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a game in a real open market.

Wow, you really don't get this.

Revenue from those athletes, especially at state schools, help to hold tuition rates down for not only the schools, but the satellite campuses around the state. The loss in revenue will be made up for through much higher tuition.

Why don't Democrats ever understand unintended consequences? Unionizing always raises the expenses for EVERYBODY in the end.

 

[Threegoofs]

As it stands, revenue from athletics holds tuition rates down dramatically.

Getting rid of athletics will cause tuition to skyrocket, too.

It really doesnt. Most athletic programs are money losers.


And we could have students make bricks for free and sell them at a profit in Universities too - that would be profitable and bring down tuition. Doesnt mean we should.

Universities should be for education. Not paid sporting events.

 

[ludin]

I do. I support kids going to college to study, not play with their balls.

I found this... a study estimates that the annual compensation via scholarship, etc for division 1 basketball players is about #27k per year. And thats for basketball players ON SCHOLARSHIP - which is not all players.

NLRB Ruling Reignites College-Athlete Pay Debate | FiveThirtyEight

Thats a pretty good deal for colleges, considering another study showed that a college player in the NCAA tournament would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a game in a real open market.

evidently you don't more so poorer kids since most of these kids wouldn't get a shot at college at all if not for athletic scholarships.

that is basketball which has a lot less overhead. just the tuition books room and board is more than 27k per year so i would call your study into question. the average out of state tuition which most kids are out of state runs 30-40k a year that doesn't include books, food room and board.

which if this ruling goes into effect then well even if it is 27k a year that is taxable. so where is the kid going get the money to pay the taxes?

 

[ludin]

It really doesnt. Most athletic programs are money losers.


And we could have students make bricks for free and sell them at a profit in Universities too - that would be profitable and bring down tuition. Doesnt mean we should.

Universities should be for education. Not paid sporting events.

they are for education. in order to play college athletics you must attend class and make the grades. if they decide to go their senior year and graduate they get a degree.

 

[Threegoofs]

evidently you don't more so poorer kids since most of these kids wouldn't get a shot at college at all if not for athletic scholarships.

that is basketball which has a lot less overhead. just the tuition books room and board is more than 27k per year so i would call your study into question. the average out of state tuition which most kids are out of state runs 30-40k a year that doesn't include books, food room and board.

which if this ruling goes into effect then well even if it is 27k a year that is taxable. so where is the kid going get the money to pay the taxes?

You mean because poor kids arent smart? Or is it because we give the poor kids with athletic ability the shot at college at the expense of the poor kids with academic ability? I have a feeling you just want the poor kids who get to go to college give you some entertainment instead of studying all the time.

All I can tell you is the median value of a scholarship is 27k per year. In state tuition and room and board is often about this amount.

Like I said, I already provided you an example that a scholarship is NOT taxable. You're clinging to that fantasy. Stop.

 

[MaggieD]

Like I said, I already provided you an example that a scholarship is NOT taxable. You're clinging to that fantasy. Stop.

I'm jumping in here out of context, but just want to point out that a $27,000 yearly scholarship indeed would be taxable if the student is considered an employee. Right now, an employee may deduct up to $5,250 in tuition reimbursement from his income. If the law doesn't chnge, $23,000+ of that $27,000 would be taxable.