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Thread: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

  1. #261
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    Re: NLRB rules NW University footballers can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    So the exploited should continue to submit to being exploited so that those who benefit from this exploitation can continue to receive benefits from the continued exploitation. That makes sense to you?
    exploited? LOL

    you ever play Division One College Sports

    I did and I coached D I as well

    admittedly Ivy league where there was no scholarships but the sports I was in-Ivy was the top in the country



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    Re: NLRB rules NW University footballers can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The athletes volunteer to play.
    exactly and their scholarship is dependent on school not playing football.

    i have a feeling that the liberal board in washington will uphold the ruling since it is backed by big union thugs as well. the court system when it goes to court will strike it down as it always has.

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    Re: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Asking your opponent to prove a negative is a fallacy.
    allow me to demonstrate why your assertion is wrong:

    in asking turtledude to show us what legal basis would bar the employees from forming a valid bargaining unit, he could have pointed us to the IRS list differentiating an employee from a non-employee to illustrate what the IRS deems to be characteristic of an employee. since it is a federal document and not subject to copyright infringement, it will be shown here with the cite for the balance that i did not post:
    For federal employment tax purposes, the usual common law rules are applicable to determine whether a worker is an independent contractor or an employee. Under the common law, you must examine the relationship between the worker and the business. All evidence of the degree of control and independence in this relationship should be considered. The facts that provide this evidence fall into three categories Behavioral Control, Financial Control, and the Relationship of the Parties.

    Behavioral Control covers facts that show whether the business has a right to direct and control what work is accomplished and how the work is done, through instructions, training, or other means.

    Financial Control covers facts that show whether the business has a right to direct or control the financial and business aspects of the worker's job. This includes:

    The extent to which the worker has unreimbursed business expenses
    The extent of the worker's investment in the facilities or tools used in performing services
    The extent to which the worker makes his or her services available to the relevant market
    How the business pays the worker, and
    The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or incur a loss
    Relationship of the Parties covers facts that show the type of relationship the parties had. This includes:

    Written contracts describing the relationship the parties intended to create
    Whether the business provides the worker with employee-type benefits, such as insurance, a pension plan, vacation pay, or sick pay
    The permanency of the relationship, and
    The extent to which services performed by the worker are a key aspect of the regular business of the company
    [emphasis added by bubba]
    Tax Topics - Topic 762 Independent Contractor vs. Employee

    thus, someone with a background in law may have sought such a resource to document what is normally used to benchmark an employee determination. notice that there was no 'proving a negative' aspect to my approach; and nothing prevented turtledude or someone who someone who actually possessed legal expertise from doing the same
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    Re: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    allow me to demonstrate why your assertion is wrong:

    in asking turtledude to show us what legal basis would bar the employees from forming a valid bargaining unit, he could have pointed us to the IRS list differentiating an employee from a non-employee to illustrate what the IRS deems to be characteristic of an employee. since it is a federal document and not subject to copyright infringement, it will be shown here with the cite for the balance that i did not post:
    [emphasis added by bubba]
    Tax Topics - Topic 762 Independent Contractor vs. Employee

    thus, someone with a background in law may have sought such a resource to document what is normally used to benchmark an employee determination. notice that there was no 'proving a negative' aspect to my approach; and nothing prevented turtledude or someone who someone who actually possessed legal expertise from doing the same
    And why should he do the work to answer a question you already know the answer to? You just prove how dishonest you're being in here.
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    Re: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    And why should he do the work to answer a question you already know the answer to? You just prove how dishonest you're being in here.
    nope. turtle dude offered the following posted opinion:
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    and the university should have the right to say Nah bubba nah!
    and i asked him to share the legal basis for that opinion

    then you chimed in with your nonsense about me asking him to prove a negative


    now, go divide by zero while the rest of us with something to contribute continue this discussion
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
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    Re: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    nope. turtle dude offered the following posted opinion:


    and i asked him to share the legal basis for that opinion

    then you chimed in with your nonsense about me asking him to prove a negative


    now, go divide by zero while the rest of us with something to contribute continue this discussion
    Careful mr. Civil. You're flirting with the line.
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  7. #267
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    Re: NLRB rules NW University footballers can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    exploited? LOL

    you ever play Division One College Sports

    I did and I coached D I as well

    admittedly Ivy league where there was no scholarships but the sports I was in-Ivy was the top in the country
    Varies widely. Why you think the video game is no more? By 'exploited' i also am thinking of for example Chris Webber walking down main street with a famous reporter and catching a glimpse of his jersey for sale at a storefront for $130, while he cannot afford a movie ticket. I think of Denard Robinson's 'free education' (that he could never put to use if he was so desperate), while some coaches make millions and $20 million is plunked down on some facility to impress next year's recruits.

    There isn't huge spending like that in Ivy sports, so you kinda speaking outta experience too.

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    Re: Labor board: Northwestern University football players can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    let's break this down into the two topics you have introduced:
    1. academically unqualified students admitted to universities
    that is a foolish practice. and an institutionally selfish one
    institutions of higher learning should only be accepting students whose record reflects an ability to succeed at that college of higher learning. those without such qualifications are destined to fail - if the same academic standards are applied to them. UNC chapel hill's recent episode where it was found eliminating academic rigor to retain player eligibility puts this foolishness on public display
    Indeed, i have seen first hand cases where mostly grade student TAs give out Bs to truly garbage papers handed in by athletes and that's an 'elite' school. The only thing i can say in defense of this is that drawing in those numbskull yet first-rate athletes also attracts some decent "regular" students who want to be entertained too during their time there. Having a decent football team has been proven to increase applications. Sad as that may be, some in the admin would argue this is why the policy isn't "foolish."

  9. #269
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    Re: NLRB rules NW University footballers can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by ludin View Post
    this is simple business. if the cost > value then you don't do it. this is where having business classes helps. there are things call ROI's.
    yes they will as athletic departments will come under major costs and liabilities.

    the cost to operate will simply not be worth whatever money they can possibly make.
    This will be overturned as it has for the past 30 years.

    they are students not employee's. nothing will change that fact. if they don't like the free education etc... they can pay for it like everyone else. no one says they have to play football it is completely voluntary on their part.
    It's real hard to imagine it ever reaching that point. First thing the ADs will have to do is take a much-deserved paycut themselves, then world-class exploiters like nick saban will have to hand in some of that $8 mil/year or whatever craziness he's given. They'll have to stop throwing $70 mil at damn practice facilities when a backyard will suffice instead.

    Here is why i cannot imagine any major D1 football college dropping its sport. It's too damn popular. Even if they *lost money* after all that overdue cost cutting i mentioned, cutting a football team will mean substantial loss in regular student applications and alumni donations and the end of every other sport that was held afloat by football. Likewise, to just shrug and say "it's voluntary, pay yourself," well a team of walk ons will suck terribly and you end up with the same result: huge loss in apps and donations - not to mention tv contracts - and you may as well cut the team entirely.

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    Re: NLRB rules NW University footballers can unionize

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    It's real hard to imagine it ever reaching that point. First thing the ADs will have to do is take a much-deserved paycut themselves, then world-class exploiters like nick saban will have to hand in some of that $8 mil/year or whatever craziness he's given. They'll have to stop throwing $70 mil at damn practice facilities when a backyard will suffice instead.
    Not really. The AD's aren't going to take a pay cut and neither will saban. so you can forget that.
    Really a backyard? you obviously have no clue about sports, training or practice.

    Here is why i cannot imagine any major D1 football college dropping its sport. It's too damn popular. Even if they *lost money* after all that overdue cost cutting i mentioned, cutting a football team will mean substantial loss in regular student applications and alumni donations and the end of every other sport that was held afloat by football. Likewise, to just shrug and say "it's voluntary, pay yourself," well a team of walk ons will suck terribly and you end up with the same result: huge loss in apps and donations - not to mention tv contracts - and you may as well cut the team entirely.
    they don't have to drop the sport just the scholarships. then players are no longer employee's. if they want to play football it will be like high school. they play because they want to play. they will have to pay full tuition books and everything else out of their own pocket like normal students and football is an extra circular activity.

    ol well then all the other sports suffer. they will suffer anyway since the school if it decides to keep those programs open will get rid of non-revenue generating sports.

    Ivy league schools do not issue scholarships and haven't for a while.

    Will Northwestern University football unionize? - CNN.com

    the northwestern president already said if they unionize the school will drop Div I football.

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