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In military rout, Russia seizes 51 Ukrainian ships in Crimea

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1750Texan said:
Ukrane is as powerful right now as a 85 year old man in a wheelchair. Putin just took the wheels off the wheelchair...big fricken deal.
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Violating treaty that his country signed and throwing into jeopardy the future of all nuclear non-proliferation treaties.
 
CRUE CAB said:
First, find me examples of any form of government being pushed by the US in the Ukraine.
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Heya Crue. :2wave: Here is one.


"Since 1991, Ukraine’s development trajectory has taken the country from a command to a market-based economy. The United States Government maintains a strategic interest in helping Ukraine’s transition toward greater democracy and a sustainable free market economy. Over the last 20 years USAID has provided $1.8 billion in critical development assistance in support of the Ukrainian people. Much of this development assistance has helped Ukrainians experience increased political freedoms, stronger transparency guarantees, and more economic and social opportunities.

Today, USAID/Ukraine implements a focused development assistance program to support: more participatory, transparent, and accountable governance; broad-based resilient economic development; and improved health status for Ukrainians. USAID also supports U.S. Presidential Initiatives in Global Health and Global Climate Change."


USAID | Embassy of the United States Kyiv, Ukraine

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-64.html
 
MMC said:
Heya Crue. :2wave: Here is one.


"Since 1991, Ukraine’s development trajectory has taken the country from a command to a market-based economy. The United States Government maintains a strategic interest in helping Ukraine’s transition toward greater democracy and a sustainable free market economy. Over the last 20 years USAID has provided $1.8 billion in critical development assistance in support of the Ukrainian people. Much of this development assistance has helped Ukrainians experience increased political freedoms, stronger transparency guarantees, and more economic and social opportunities.

Today, USAID/Ukraine implements a focused development assistance program to support: more participatory, transparent, and accountable governance; broad-based resilient economic development; and improved health status for Ukrainians. USAID also supports U.S. Presidential Initiatives in Global Health and Global Climate Change."


USAID | Embassy of the United States Kyiv, Ukraine

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe/187296-ukrainian-crisis-2014-a-64.html
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Still pretty far from a hostile take over.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think that under EU/IMF/Nato auspices that the people of Ukraine will devalue their currency (not a benefit to citizens), raise the price od Energy (not a benefit to citizens), lower pensions (not a benefit to citizens), be forced to use Ukraine Patrimony to collateralize IMF loans (resources, pipelines, etc.), be forced to pay as you go plan for Russian gas (due to historic delinquencies), suffer from a citizenry split 50% by ideology to prevent progress (like repub/dem in USA), lower wages, higher unemployment, among other things, but those are the realistic projections of Western banking austerity.
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They were in economic trouble before this, and what had to get this help anyways. It is better to get economic help form the EU than it is form Russia. They need the money for stimulus, there is also no basis for any of these claims. What Ukraine needs is the EU, the economy will improve if it starts opening itself up more to the EU.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Still pretty far from a hostile take over.
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Well you have to remember.....the Acting Prime Minister use to be their President and that corruption ran high under him too. The only difference him and his group have been pushing for the Westernization. Then the Push on Russia.

Yet notice our Politicians will use the term Greater Democracy......there is no such thing. There is just Democracy.



THE BLACK SEA FLEET

On Crimea's southern shore sits the port city of Sevastopol, home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet and its thousands of naval personnel. Russia kept its half of the Soviet fleet, but was rattled in 2009 when the pro-Western Ukrainian President Viktor Yuschenko warned that it would have to leave the key port by 2017. Shortly after pro-Russian Viktor Yanukovych was elected president in 2010, he agreed to extend the Russian lease until 2042. Russia fears that Ukraine's new pro-Western government could evict it......snip~

How Crimea differs from the rest of Ukraine

Page Not Found - Debate Politics Forums (The Ukrainian Crisis 2014.....)
 
CRUE CAB said:
He will have to be stopped at some point. Now? Or when he is too powerful?
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True, but planning that eventuality means that you start planning for it like hello, yesterday or I dunno, how about last month. The key to chess is having an ability superior to your opponent in predicting and influencing future outcomes, provided you've established all the possibilities for each scenario. The key to poker is having the best hand, or appearing too.

Tim-
 
AJiveMan said:
Well, I'm not Nostradamus but I can just foresee Russians dealing with more terrorist attacks over this. If Americans won't get ugly with Russia, some group might organize and wage a bit of sabotage, some subversion with some nasty attacks. It wouldn't surprise me either that the CIA might have something to do with it covertly. Something like what the US did in Afghanistan to put the Russians on their heels.
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No, Terrorist groups pretty much learned their lesson in fighting with Russians. Russians have no problem killing the whole family to send a message to others.
 
Carjosse said:
I don't see how violating Ukraine's sovereignty and invading it makes Putin the good guy, he would be the good guy if he let Ukraine join the EU and choose it's own path.
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Well, the good guy according to you. It wouldn't make him the good guy according to Gazprom or Russian oligarchs.

Then what about Crimea? Why should Ukraine be allowed to choose it's path, but not Crimea?
 
CRUE CAB said:
News flash as well, the "west" has been spreading democracy for decades.
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If we were interested in democracy here, wouldn't we be pushing for Yanukovich to be re-instated and the election process to be respected? You may not like him, I know I don't, but he was the duly elected President of Ukraine.
 
austrianecon said:
How can you invade a region that was part of Germany? You mean he kicked out the Occupiers?
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You would have to read the Treaty of Versailles. Not sure, but he took it back. Many thought it was a "testing of the waters" and since no one said anything, he took it as a go for whatever else he wanted to do.
 
notquiteright said:
First the missiles were SOVIET Missiles, second the Ukrainians 'gave up' the Nuclear weapons to gain money from the West. Third the Ukrainians were not fooled by anyone but themselves if they thought the memorandum was a military defense treaty. Fourth the colonies didn't sit back and demand France fight the world's first superpower for them back in the late 18th century.

Now try and pay attention- I NEVER said the Ukrainians should die in massive numbers, you seem to lack any real debating skills and just make crap up... :doh

What I did say is it took FAR more than a few missiles to send the USSR packing in Afghanistan. The Afghanis fought for a decade, dying by the thousands, to drive the Soviet troops out.

We 'Mericans celebrate several massacres as a point of pride or have you not heard of a small mission in Texas... I want to say it is called something like 'The Alamo'??? Ever heard of the sacrifice those few men made against hopeless odds? Our modern Cav units have enshrined a massacre of Custer's men. "Gerry Owen, Sir!", the ditty, wearing 7th Cav insignia...

Sometimes what never beens call suicide is really making the ultimate sacrifice.

The Ukrainians are not fighting for the Crimea because they know it really isn't part of their country, culture, or business.
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Ukraine is not fighting Russia because they don't have a chance.

So you have the Hollywood view of the Alamo. Those at the Alamo had an arsenal of cannons, vastly more than Santa Anna. They believed Sam Houston would come with the Texas army for those cannons, which is how they held off the initial wave attacks. When they learned Houston would not come Santa Anna had already given the death ultimatum. The line in the dirt is a myth as at that point they were surrounded and there was no escape. They did not decide to make the "ultimate sacrifice." They miscalculated Sam Houston, were surrounded, and had been told no prisoners would be taken alive.

At least you are one people who believes Hitler was correct to tell Germans at Stalingrad to fight to the death of the last soldier and his declaring all Germans should die rather than surrender - since that is your repeated view now.
 
CRUE CAB said:
You would have to read the Treaty of Versailles. Not sure, but he took it back. Many thought it was a "testing of the waters" and since no one said anything, he took it as a go for whatever else he wanted to do.
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Treaty of Versailles only said Germany couldn't militarize it. Rhineland was part of Germany, so was Saarland (but under French rule). In 1935 Saarland voted to be release back to Germany. Rhineland itself included cities like Cologne, Mainz, Mannheim, Dusseldorf. Germany's industry sector.

Sudetenland was known as German Bohemians as well. After WW1 Germans in this area protested and protested and protested only to be put down by the newly formed Czech military. US Ambassador Archibald Cary Coolidge told Wilson to give certain regions like Cheb to Germany and South Moravia and South Bohemia to Austria. This was ignored.
 
CRUE CAB said:
As in? They capitulated. Germany took Paris without firing a shot.
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Germany took Paris without firing a shot? Battle of France lasted over a month with about 360,000 dead or wounded French, British, Dutch and Belgian forces and Germany and Italy taking 163,650 casualties.


Yep.. Germany took Paris without a shot being fired..
 
CRUE CAB said:
As in? They capitulated. Germany took Paris without firing a shot.
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So your another person who want civilians killed and cities destroyed. Disgusting. The French military found and lost. Many French soldiers were killed in the fight.

Obviously you claim the Confederacy were all a bunch of cowards too because they abandoned and surrendered cities they could not defend so they would not be destroyed.
 
rocket88 said:
Well, the good guy according to you. It wouldn't make him the good guy according to Gazprom or Russian oligarchs.

Then what about Crimea? Why should Ukraine be allowed to choose it's path, but not Crimea?
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That is an nonsensical statement. The Crimea was Ukraine.
 
joko104 said:
So your another person who want civilians killed and cities destroyed. Disgusting. The French military found and lost. Many French soldiers were killed in the fight.

Obviously you claim the Confederacy were all a bunch of cowards too because they abandoned and surrendered cities they could not defend so they would not be destroyed.
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Where did you get any of that? The French military barely put up a fight in WWII, the Maginot Line was worthless, no advancements in tank or air tech between then and WWI and no real will to fight.
Which all has zero to do with the South during the Civil War.
 
austrianecon said:
Germany took Paris without firing a shot? Battle of France lasted over a month with about 360,000 dead or wounded French, British, Dutch and Belgian forces and Germany and Italy taking 163,650 casualties.


Yep.. Germany took Paris without a shot being fired..
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Paris was not fought for or defended.
 
austrianecon said:
How can you invade a region that was part of Germany? You mean he kicked out the Occupiers?
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God, not another Nazi worshipper here! Where is Stormfront when you really need it? Hey - come get your guys back!
 
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