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In military rout, Russia seizes 51 Ukrainian ships in Crimea

MaggieD said:
No. Enlighten me. ;)
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:) That was Neville Chamberlain's response to Hitlers' invasion of Czechoslovakia, nominally to protect ethnic Russians who were being "mistreated" in the Sudentland. Vacillating and weak Western response convinced Hitler that he could pretty much take what he wanted and, arguably, led to his decision to invade Poland, starting WWII.
 
AJiveMan said:
He, (Putin) probably plans on swallowing up the Ukraine either in whole, or in bits and pieces, and turning it into Russia. He's acting like Russia will be the bully in the area.

Not much the USA can do about it, unless Americans want to send father, sons, mother and daughters off to another war we cannot afford. I have to believe most Americans are tired of wars by now.
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You're not a very good poker player, are you?

We would not have to send anyone to war to break Russia's back over this. All we'd have to do is put a limited number of weapons into the hands of Russia's enemies in Eastern Europe and the Ukraine.

Your foreign policy - like some many on the forum - is very simplistic and it found in 1 word: "Retreat!"

However, this seems very clearly a deal between the USA and Russia. They get East Europe back. We get all the Southern former Soviet bloc countries. Cold war super powers dividing out the rest of the world.
 
cpwill said:
:) That was Neville Chamberlain's response to Hitlers' invasion of Czechoslovakia, nominally to protect ethnic Russians who were being "mistreated" in the Sudentland. Vacillating and weak Western response convinced Hitler that he could pretty much take what he wanted and, arguably, led to his decision to invade Poland, starting WWII.
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I have to disagree with that, Mr. Will.
 
Carjosse said:
Well people are saying he will not go after the rest of Ukraine but after Transnistria, which is a breakaway region of Moldova. I don't think anyone would care too much about that but it give Putin access to the rest of Eastern Europe. My issue is that there areas are not connected to Russia in anyway, they depend on their neighbouring nations, it would be like the U.S. annexing parts of Indonesia or something, it is highly impractical for logistical reasons.
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He is going farther. You watch.
 
Carjosse said:
Well people are saying he will not go after the rest of Ukraine but after Transnistria, which is a breakaway region of Moldova. I don't think anyone would care too much about that but it give Putin access to the rest of Eastern Europe. My issue is that there areas are not connected to Russia in anyway, they depend on their neighbouring nations, it would be like the U.S. annexing parts of Indonesia or something, it is highly impractical for logistical reasons.
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Well, I'm not Nostradamus but I can just foresee Russians dealing with more terrorist attacks over this. If Americans won't get ugly with Russia, some group might organize and wage a bit of sabotage, some subversion with some nasty attacks. It wouldn't surprise me either that the CIA might have something to do with it covertly. Something like what the US did in Afghanistan to put the Russians on their heels.
 
AJiveMan said:
Well, I'm not Nostradamus but I can just foresee Russians dealing with more terrorist attacks over this. If American won't get ugly with Russia, some group might organize and wage a bit of sabotage, some subversion with some nasty attacks. It wouldn't surprise me either that the CIA might have something to do with it covertly. Something like what the US did in Afghanistan to put the Russians on their heels.
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They already have that in the Caucasus regions.
 
Listening to Sen. McCain this morning 03-26-14 he said he doubts Russia will move in on the Ukraine but let me offer this one up and it should be very familiar to history buffs. Suddenly we receive news hundreds if not a thousand Russian soldiers were found massacred somewhere in the Ukraine (recall Poland in WWII and the Gulf of Tonkin-Viet Nam). Putin declares this horrible act of aggression as an act of war thus declares war on the gangsters. Note the Russian military thinks nothing of killing their own as we witnessed in WWII. For McCain to say they won't go in but in the same breath say Putin wants the U.S.S.R back does not fit. Second thing is if we decide to re-arm Poland Putin could use that as an excuse to invade anywhere in range of the nukes.
 
cpwill said:
:) That was Neville Chamberlain's response to Hitlers' invasion of Czechoslovakia, nominally to protect ethnic Russians who were being "mistreated" in the Sudentland. Vacillating and weak Western response convinced Hitler that he could pretty much take what he wanted and, arguably, led to his decision to invade Poland, starting WWII.
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There seems to be a major difference between what Putin is doing and what happened in the 1930's. before his advances, Hitler has built up is armed forces. Especially on the technological front, they were much superior to military he was about to face. Not really true of current Russia.

Look at when U.S. weapons go to battle, Iraq or with the Israelies versus Russian equipment. The numbers of tanks, planes etc are less relevant than the ability of those tanks and planes.

Putin can make small moves to take back some of a lost empire, but has no real ability to move into Europe.

Where he can and will hurt us is in places like Syria and Iran where his greater personal strength will win out.
 
joko104 said:
Your messages are just bizarre. You declare Russian military occupation and conquest is heroic, while cursing non-military actions of your own country. Obviously you want the white race to go to war - literally - against the mongrel races.
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I don't even know of any mongrel races, but you are obviously a rascist.
 
joko104 said:
You're not a very good poker player, are you?

We would not have to send anyone to war to break Russia's back over this. All we'd have to do is put a limited number of weapons into the hands of Russia's enemies in Eastern Europe and the Ukraine.

Your foreign policy - like some many on the forum - is very simplistic and it found in 1 word: "Retreat!"

However, this seems very clearly a deal between the USA and Russia. They get East Europe back. We get all the Southern former Soviet bloc countries. Cold war super powers dividing out the rest of the world.
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You know that doesn't work. I give you Iraq and Afghanistan as examples. What we did helping the musha hadeen ended up biting us in the rump on 9/11/01. How's that for simplistic?
 
The lesson of WWII is that isolation does not work. Had the USA not entered WWII Germany would have gained the nuclear bomb and ruled the world. Arguably, WWII would not have happened if Hitler/Germany was not convinced the USA would stay out and was so expanded that it evolved to a "world war" as a result.

The dynamics are different now with nuclear weapons, which makes matters far more rather than less dangerous. The action in the Ukraine is putting maximum pressure on other countries to develop weapons of mass destruction.

So, if you feel comfortable with 75 3rd world dictators and theocrats having biological, chemical, dirty bomb and nuclear weapons, then what is happening now is just fine to you.
 
Carjosse said:
They do have the heroes of the revolution, they were the leaders of the opposition form prison not the U.S. embassy. Russia poisoned the democratically elected president that tired to get closer to the EU. I don't watch US mainstream media, thank you very much, I also have never watched TV news.
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I apologize for the Mainstream News comment. Tymoshenko was the one in jail and she's not any kind of hero. Check and see what her old ally Yushenko had to say about her. Ukraine is being carved up by Corporate players in the NWO. Cargill, Monsanto, John Deere, and Chevron to name a few.
 
Since there wasnt a battle I would hardly call it a military rout. Seems to me the Ukrainians just dont wanna fight.
 
AJiveMan said:
You know that doesn't work. I give you Iraq and Afghanistan as examples. What we did helping the musha hadeen ended up biting us in the rump on 9/11/01. How's that for simplistic?
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What does that have to do with what I posted? In fact, it only took us giving a few small surface to air shoulderable missiles to run Russia out of Afghanistan.

I ACTUALLY BELIEVE that Musha Hadeen attacked us on 9-11? Wow.
 
PoS said:
Since there wasnt a battle I would hardly call it a military rout. Seems to me the Ukrainians just dont wanna fight.
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They were scammed and sold out by the USA and UK - and they know it. So they have the choice of being slaughtered or giving up. What else can they do when those who promised alliance if the gave up their nuclear weapons now just point and them and laugh "SUCKERS!!!"

WE - RUSSIA, the USA and UK tricked those Ukraineans quite skillfully. Talked them right back into Russia subjugation. We get massive resources without Russia opposition along Russia's Southern border as our cut.

And we will continue to do so because there is no real possible payback or resistance. Not yet anyway.
 
DaveFagan said:
I apologize for the Mainstream News comment. Tymoshenko was the one in jail and she's not any kind of hero. Check and see what her old ally Yushenko had to say about her. Ukraine is being carved up by Corporate players in the NWO. Cargill, Monsanto, John Deere, and Chevron to name a few.
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I'm not seeing that, those companies have ties to Ukraine but they do not have much influence. If they did the economy would not be stagnating as it is, Ukraine is not ruled by American corporations, they have their own. European companies maybe but then again they want those. They want to participate in the Western economy which means they also want to be open to Western corporations as well as their own. I would also like to ask: do you believe that Russian corporations like Gazprom would be any better?
 
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DaveFagan said:
What a bunch of bullcrap. Obama got caught with his hand in the cookie jar (Ukraine) and Russia was forced to protect its' interests and people. The USA should be tried in th eUN for coercion, insurrection, and creating instability in Ukraine. The USA Media won't admit it, but shootings in Kiev were by the opposition, not Yanukovych.
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Yep DF. :2wave: Russia was forced to make a move to protect its interests. Either way once they ran Yanukovych out it was a Coup.
 
joko104 said:
What does that have to do with what I posted? In fact, it only took us giving a few small surface to air shoulderable missiles to run Russia out of Afghanistan.

I ACTUALLY BELIEVE that Musha Hadeen attacked us on 9-11? Wow.
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You suggested giving arms to an opposition force to use against Russia, bad idea, just bad.
 
washunut said:
There seems to be a major difference between what Putin is doing and what happened in the 1930's. before his advances, Hitler has built up is armed forces. Especially on the technological front, they were much superior to military he was about to face
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Actually he wasn't. In one of History's perennial lessons on the importance of generalship, sound strategy, and willingness to exert one's self to force a conclusion, the German Wehrmacht was actually militarily inferior to the forces of France and Britain at the time.

Look at when U.S. weapons go to battle, Iraq or with the Israelies versus Russian equipment. The numbers of tanks, planes etc are less relevant than the ability of those tanks and planes.
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Quantity tends to have a quality all it's own. For (another) example, the Sherman tanks were inferior in WWII once we invaded Africa and Europe to their German counterparts - but we had lots of them. Russians used the mass-over-quality approach in their war with Germany as well, and 80% of German casualties happened on the Eastern Front because of it. I don't know if you can accurately compare Russians to Iraqi's as far as skill of employment is concerned.

Putin can make small moves to take back some of a lost empire, but has no real ability to move into Europe.
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Interesting. You do not consider the Ukraine or the Baltic States to be part of Europe?

Where he can and will hurt us is in places like Syria and Iran where his greater personal strength will win out.
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True enough; and in his ability to use petro-power and threats to shove eastern Europe around. I would add "Egypt" to that list - when General Sisi decided that "the people" desired him to step down in order to "run" (he will certainly win overwhelmingly) for President, he went to get Putin's blessing, not ours.
 
Carjosse said:
Well people are saying he will not go after the rest of Ukraine but after Transnistria, which is a breakaway region of Moldova. I don't think anyone would care too much about that but it give Putin access to the rest of Eastern Europe. My issue is that there areas are not connected to Russia in anyway, they depend on their neighbouring nations, it would be like the U.S. annexing parts of Indonesia or something, it is highly impractical for logistical reasons.
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That's Correct Carjosse. As Head of NATO stated that this morning with the exercises that were taking place there. I put it up in here.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/inter...g-other-countries-over-russia-and-ukrane.html

Plus, RM has it up in the Europe Forum.
 
joko104 said:
What does that have to do with what I posted? In fact, it only took us giving a few small surface to air shoulderable missiles to run Russia out of Afghanistan. I ACTUALLY BELIEVE that Musha Hadeen attacked us on 9-11? Wow.
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You have a unique remembering. It took millions in arms to keep the Afghans going. It took over a million dead Afghanis. 500 Stingers was the final nail in a coffin a decade in the making.

But the key element was a nation willing to FIGHT and take MASSIVE casualties. It appears the Ukrainians are not willing to fight- far more willing to call the USofA into the conflict, which again is the Crimea, not a historic part of the Ukraine, wanting to be closer to Russia than the Ukraine.
 
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