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Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

NIMBY said:
You mean it's about Big Oil owning the GOP. Why does big oil need welfare ?
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Big oil doesn't get welfare, but big green only survives because of welfare.
 
j-mac said:
Start with explaining your concept of General welfare, and I'll look at it in the morning.
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What do you want me to explain about it? Our federal Congress may provide for the general welfare in any manner that is not repugnant to our federal Constitution. The same goes for the common defense, as well.
 
apdst said:
Big oil doesn't get welfare, but big green only survives because of welfare.
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Where are the subsidies/welfare tucked away in the House Budget? Why are GOP members names hidden who are getting subsidies/welfare from the Farm bill ?
 
apdst said:
Is that cheese, or liver you're trying to bait me with?
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You spoke of jobs created by KXL. Please tell us what you know of this claim. How many jobs will be created by this current oil spill in Ohio? How much will Uncle Sugar get to kick in for big oil's gift to our water supplies ?
 
Well if you drown plants and animals in oil they may eventually get "preserved", get it? :2razz:
 
danielpalos said:
What do you want me to explain about it?
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I want you to explain how you think that the Federal Government can do what ever it wants concerning assistance to the poor, and such, and how you think the founders envisioned a welfare state.

Our federal Congress may provide for the general welfare in any manner that is not repugnant to our federal Constitution.
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Two things here:

1. "provide for the general welfare".... What they did to specify that is to lay out the enumerated powers. It is NOT "in any manner" it is specific. Raise an Army, build post roads, etc. That has nothing to do with welfare assistance payments in this country.

2. It is clear in the writings of the founders what their intent was, in the Federalist papers, and they were getting away from a Monarchy that "took care of the subjects needs through a leviathan"....

The same goes for the common defense, as well.
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Defense is an enumerated power yes.

"The grant of power to “provide . . . for the general welfare” raises a two–fold question: How may Congress provide for “the general welfare” and what is “the general welfare” that it is authorized to promote? The first half of this question was answered by Thomas Jefferson in his opinion on the Bank as follows: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”531"

CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I

The "welfare of the Union" is laid out in the enumerated powers. They are as follows:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Enumerated powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as we see "General Welfare" is in reference to the Union itself, not individual well being, or wealth. That young man, is up to you.
 
PoS said:
Well if you drown plants and animals in oil they may eventually get "preserved", get it? :2razz:
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How much oil naturally seeps onto land, or into our waters naturally? Anyone know?
 
j-mac said:
I want you to explain how you think that the Federal Government can do what ever it wants concerning assistance to the poor, and such, and how you think the founders envisioned a welfare state.

Two things here:

1. "provide for the general welfare".... What they did to specify that is to lay out the enumerated powers. It is NOT "in any manner" it is specific. Raise an Army, build post roads, etc. That has nothing to do with welfare assistance payments in this country.

2. It is clear in the writings of the founders what their intent was, in the Federalist papers, and they were getting away from a Monarchy that "took care of the subjects needs through a leviathan"....

Defense is an enumerated power yes.

"The grant of power to “provide . . . for the general welfare” raises a two–fold question: How may Congress provide for “the general welfare” and what is “the general welfare” that it is authorized to promote? The first half of this question was answered by Thomas Jefferson in his opinion on the Bank as follows: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”531"

CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I

The "welfare of the Union" is laid out in the enumerated powers. They are as follows:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

Enumerated powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And as we see "General Welfare" is in reference to the Union itself, not individual well being, or wealth. That young man, is up to you.
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Here are the general powers, specifically enumerated:

to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States
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Your subscription to the republican doctrine is duly noted. I am not a republican. You are welcome to vote your conscience at any election to pursue your republican doctrine goals.
 
danielpalos said:
Here are the general powers, specifically enumerated:
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Yes, that is right. However, it is clear that you believe that the term "Welfare" means something totally different than what the founders meant by the term. When they were saying 'welfare' they were speaking of the survival of the union through things like raising a standing army for defense, NOT paying for your monthly food allotment.

Your subscription to the republican doctrine is duly noted. I am not a republican. You are welcome to vote your conscience at any election to pursue your republican doctrine goals.
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Well, thank you, but I don't need your permission. You are clearly a supporter of big government, with cradle to grave entitlements, but I don't want the government with that much control over my life.
 
j-mac said:
what the founders meant by the term.
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It's one thing to disagree with the idea of welfare.

But this founding father worship is extremely unhealthy.

It literally does not matter what they thought or meant anymore... we now live in an age of the internet, spaceships, cars, supersonic Jet Fighters, air travel...

Sticking to dogma of ages past only leads to disaster, Republicans are meant to be pro-business, businesses who stick to mantra and old ways die a very painful death.

There are some things that are universal... freedom for example, but if you get bogged down by mantra, you will lose in the competitive world we live in now.
 
Jetboogieman said:
It's one thing to disagree with the idea of welfare.

But this founding father worship is extremely unhealthy.

It literally does not matter what they thought or meant anymore... we now live in an age of the internet, spaceships, cars, supersonic Jet Fighters, air travel...

Sticking to dogma of ages past only leads to disaster, Republicans are meant to be pro-business, businesses who stick to mantra and old ways die a very painful death.

There are some things that are universal... freedom for example, but if you get bogged down by mantra, you will lose in the competitive world we live in now.
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If you want to change the constitution, update it, or reform it in any way, there is a process for that....You don't just get to declare that you don't like the limitations anymore so you're not going to follow it....
 
j-mac said:
Yes, that is right. However, it is clear that you believe that the term "Welfare" means something totally different than what the founders meant by the term. When they were saying 'welfare' they were speaking of the survival of the union through things like raising a standing army for defense, NOT paying for your monthly food allotment.

Well, thank you, but I don't need your permission. You are clearly a supporter of big government, with cradle to grave entitlements, but I don't want the government with that much control over my life.
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Why do you believe providing for the general welfare does not mean what it says? Compare and contrast that to providing for the common defense. Does the common defense Only consist of coastal fortifications?
 
j-mac said:
If you want to change the constitution, update it, or reform it in any way, there is a process for that....You don't just get to declare that you don't like the limitations anymore so you're not going to follow it....
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That isn't what I said.

The constitution and your system of government does need a dramatic overhaul but that's not possible because of how many people stick dogmatically to "What would the founders do, what did the founders want".

In business you have something called an S curve, which is the life of any product or business idea... eventually loses effectiveness or becomes unpopular at which point a new ideas and products must be implemented to prevent the destruction of the company.

Recently I attended a seminar with a guy who was one of the top Disney executives for a long time, this guy opened Tokyo Disney among other things.

And in the top brass meetings after Walt Disney died, the company almost died because they would constantly go "what would Walt Do, what would Walt want, Walt wouldn't like that" etc.

It took a massive shift to make the company successful again.
 
danielpalos said:
Why do you believe providing for the general welfare does not mean what it says? Compare and contrast that to providing for the common defense. Does the common defense Only consist of coastal fortifications?
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Because "the General Welfare" it was clear was not concerning the individual, as in their day to day well being, food, housing, etc. But rather, the "Welfare of the country"..... And that was to provide a free place for people to succeed on their own free from government interference as they had in England at the time. General Welfare is a clause, or if you will a goal, and Common Defense is a tool within the power granted to achieve that goal.
 
Jetboogieman said:
That isn't what I said.

The constitution and your system of government does need a dramatic overhaul but that's not possible because of how many people stick dogmatically to "What would the founders do, what did the founders want".

In business you have something called an S curve, which is the life of any product or business idea... eventually loses effectiveness or becomes unpopular at which point a new ideas and products must be implemented to prevent the destruction of the company.

Recently I attended a seminar with a guy who was one of the top Disney executives for a long time, this guy opened Tokyo Disney among other things.

And in the top brass meetings after Walt Disney died, the company almost died because they would constantly go "what would Walt Do, what would Walt want, Walt wouldn't like that" etc.

It took a massive shift to make the company successful again.
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If it "needs a dramatic overhaul" as you say, (I don't think it does) then there are methods, and ways to do that. You don't just say at some point I don't like that dusty old document anymore so let's throw it in the trash and do something different.....Unless of course, you don't ascribe to the rule of law.
 
j-mac said:
If it "needs a dramatic overhaul" as you say, (I don't think it does) then there are methods, and ways to do that. You don't just say at some point I don't like that dusty old document anymore so let's throw it in the trash and do something different.....Unless of course, you don't ascribe to the rule of law.
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You're putting words in my mouth.

You haven't actually tackled my point.

Your current system of governance no longer works, it is fundamentally broken.

I don't have all the answers but one thing that stands in the way of using prescribed methods to change thing is

1) the two parties would have alot to lose, and so would never wish to change their current monopoly on power.

2) Too many people have this nostalgic and strict view of the constitution without the required flexibility to make such necessary changes.
 
Jetboogieman said:
You're putting words in my mouth.

You haven't actually tackled my point.

Your current system of governance no longer works, it is fundamentally broken.

I don't have all the answers but one thing that stands in the way of using prescribed methods to change thing is

1) the two parties would have alot to lose, and so would never wish to change their current monopoly on power.

2) Too many people have this nostalgic and strict view of the constitution without the required flexibility to make such necessary changes.
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Change it to what exactly?
 
Someone should invent a way to harnass the energy from all those people running on tread mills. If one jogger running for an hour could produce enough energy to run a few appliances, imagine what a marathon could do. It just seems like all that people power could be put to better use.
 
j-mac said:
Change it to what exactly?
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Look man I don't have all the answers.

But the American government is fundamentally broken and it's painfully obvious a change is needed.

I've proposed changes including proportional representation and a change to a more parliamentary style of governance that allows more parties and more views into the arena.

Is it the best solution?

I'm not sure.

Every situation is different and it may require something else.

But recognizing a major change is needed is but the first step of many, but probably one of the most important ones.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Look man I don't have all the answers.

But the American government is fundamentally broken and it's painfully obvious a change is needed.

I've proposed changes including proportional representation and a change to a more parliamentary style of governance that allows more parties and more views into the arena.

Is it the best solution?

I'm not sure.

Every situation is different and it may require something else.

But recognizing a major change is needed is but the first step of many, but probably one of the most important ones.
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Well, damn. I have been hoping somebody would.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Look man I don't have all the answers.

But the American government is fundamentally broken and it's painfully obvious a change is needed.

I've proposed changes including proportional representation and a change to a more parliamentary style of governance that allows more parties and more views into the arena.

Is it the best solution?

I'm not sure.

Every situation is different and it may require something else.

But recognizing a major change is needed is but the first step of many, but probably one of the most important ones.
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Changing ourselves into a more Euro-centric type of government, with a Parliamentary system I don't believe is the answer....I know that is what Progressives want, is for America to conform more to a Euro system, but that is not what we are, and I would further say, that is exactly what we left.
 
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