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Thread: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

  1. #131
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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Big oil doesn't get welfare, but big green only survives because of welfare.
    Where are the subsidies/welfare tucked away in the House Budget? Why are GOP members names hidden who are getting subsidies/welfare from the Farm bill ?
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Is that cheese, or liver you're trying to bait me with?
    You spoke of jobs created by KXL. Please tell us what you know of this claim. How many jobs will be created by this current oil spill in Ohio? How much will Uncle Sugar get to kick in for big oil's gift to our water supplies ?
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Here is something:

    In the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $14 billion to $52 billion annually,...

    Source: Fossil Fuel Subsidies in the U.S. | Oil Change International

  4. #134
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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Well if you drown plants and animals in oil they may eventually get "preserved", get it?

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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    What do you want me to explain about it?
    I want you to explain how you think that the Federal Government can do what ever it wants concerning assistance to the poor, and such, and how you think the founders envisioned a welfare state.

    Our federal Congress may provide for the general welfare in any manner that is not repugnant to our federal Constitution.
    Two things here:

    1. "provide for the general welfare".... What they did to specify that is to lay out the enumerated powers. It is NOT "in any manner" it is specific. Raise an Army, build post roads, etc. That has nothing to do with welfare assistance payments in this country.

    2. It is clear in the writings of the founders what their intent was, in the Federalist papers, and they were getting away from a Monarchy that "took care of the subjects needs through a leviathan"....

    The same goes for the common defense, as well.
    Defense is an enumerated power yes.

    "The grant of power to “provide . . . for the general welfare” raises a two–fold question: How may Congress provide for “the general welfare” and what is “the general welfare” that it is authorized to promote? The first half of this question was answered by Thomas Jefferson in his opinion on the Bank as follows: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”531"

    CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I

    The "welfare of the Union" is laid out in the enumerated powers. They are as follows:

    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    To borrow on the credit of the United States;
    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
    To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;
    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

    Enumerated powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And as we see "General Welfare" is in reference to the Union itself, not individual well being, or wealth. That young man, is up to you.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by PoS View Post
    Well if you drown plants and animals in oil they may eventually get "preserved", get it?
    How much oil naturally seeps onto land, or into our waters naturally? Anyone know?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I want you to explain how you think that the Federal Government can do what ever it wants concerning assistance to the poor, and such, and how you think the founders envisioned a welfare state.

    Two things here:

    1. "provide for the general welfare".... What they did to specify that is to lay out the enumerated powers. It is NOT "in any manner" it is specific. Raise an Army, build post roads, etc. That has nothing to do with welfare assistance payments in this country.

    2. It is clear in the writings of the founders what their intent was, in the Federalist papers, and they were getting away from a Monarchy that "took care of the subjects needs through a leviathan"....

    Defense is an enumerated power yes.

    "The grant of power to “provide . . . for the general welfare” raises a two–fold question: How may Congress provide for “the general welfare” and what is “the general welfare” that it is authorized to promote? The first half of this question was answered by Thomas Jefferson in his opinion on the Bank as follows: “[T]he laying of taxes is the power, and the general welfare the purpose for which the power is to be exercised. They [Congress] are not to lay taxes ad libitum for any purpose they please; but only to pay the debts or provide for the welfare of the Union. In like manner, they are not to do anything they please to provide for the general welfare, but only to lay taxes for that purpose.”531"

    CRS/LII Annotated Constitution Article I

    The "welfare of the Union" is laid out in the enumerated powers. They are as follows:

    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
    To borrow on the credit of the United States;
    To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
    To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
    To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
    To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
    To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
    To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
    To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
    To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;
    To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
    To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
    To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

    Enumerated powers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And as we see "General Welfare" is in reference to the Union itself, not individual well being, or wealth. That young man, is up to you.
    Here are the general powers, specifically enumerated:

    to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States
    Your subscription to the republican doctrine is duly noted. I am not a republican. You are welcome to vote your conscience at any election to pursue your republican doctrine goals.

  8. #138
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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by danielpalos View Post
    Here are the general powers, specifically enumerated:

    Yes, that is right. However, it is clear that you believe that the term "Welfare" means something totally different than what the founders meant by the term. When they were saying 'welfare' they were speaking of the survival of the union through things like raising a standing army for defense, NOT paying for your monthly food allotment.

    Your subscription to the republican doctrine is duly noted. I am not a republican. You are welcome to vote your conscience at any election to pursue your republican doctrine goals.
    Well, thank you, but I don't need your permission. You are clearly a supporter of big government, with cradle to grave entitlements, but I don't want the government with that much control over my life.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  9. #139
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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    what the founders meant by the term.
    It's one thing to disagree with the idea of welfare.

    But this founding father worship is extremely unhealthy.

    It literally does not matter what they thought or meant anymore... we now live in an age of the internet, spaceships, cars, supersonic Jet Fighters, air travel...

    Sticking to dogma of ages past only leads to disaster, Republicans are meant to be pro-business, businesses who stick to mantra and old ways die a very painful death.

    There are some things that are universal... freedom for example, but if you get bogged down by mantra, you will lose in the competitive world we live in now.

  10. #140
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    Re: Thousands of Gallons of Crude Oil Spills in Ohio Nature Preserve

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    It's one thing to disagree with the idea of welfare.

    But this founding father worship is extremely unhealthy.

    It literally does not matter what they thought or meant anymore... we now live in an age of the internet, spaceships, cars, supersonic Jet Fighters, air travel...

    Sticking to dogma of ages past only leads to disaster, Republicans are meant to be pro-business, businesses who stick to mantra and old ways die a very painful death.

    There are some things that are universal... freedom for example, but if you get bogged down by mantra, you will lose in the competitive world we live in now.
    If you want to change the constitution, update it, or reform it in any way, there is a process for that....You don't just get to declare that you don't like the limitations anymore so you're not going to follow it....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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