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Judge strikes down Michigan's ban on gay marriage[W:95]

The government recognizing a marriage is a lot like the government recognizing an adoption or a birth certificate. All set up legal relationships for people. Legal kinship.

Bull****. A marriage by itself is between two private individuals and has nothing at all to do with government. A marriage only becomes comparable to a birth certificate when the government involves itself in the crafting of the contract. Any marriage or marriage contract can be recognized without such interference.
 
Bull****. A marriage by itself is between two private individuals and nothing at all to do with government. A marriage only becomes comparable to a birth certificate when the government involves itself in the crafting of the contract. Any marriage or marriage contract can be recognized without such interference.

There is a marriage contract that acts as a legal kinship establishing document. This is why all you have to do to get federal benefits (such as military dependency) is to show a marriage license, just as you would show either a birth certificate or adoption record to claim a child as a military dependent.
 
We do decide, via the US Constitution. We the people have decided that the states and other people, even a majority, cannot take treat groups unfairly under the law without showing that this treatment furthers some legitimate state interest (the 14th Amendment, EPC). That takes precedent over any vote the people make, whether direct (via ballot) or indirect (via representatives).
We, the people, do not have to be locked into what your side feels we the people have, for all time, "decided".

Your side on this argument certainly didn't accept it, don't depend on my side accepting what they don't agree with, either. The idea that we "cannot take treat groups unfairly under the law without showing that this treatment furthers some legitimate state interest" is a bit disingenuous, don't you think?

First: Define "fair". Does "fair" mean equal? No, so "fair" is a basically unmeasurable concept generally; can be placed on a continuum wherever we so choose. Next, what is "the law"...? And we know that the law is always subject to change. A "legitimate state interest" ? So, who defines that? Again, the minority does not get to rule the majority... except by our consent.

We, the people, are the sovereigns here...not your rickety courts and corrupt statists... sorry to see so many that have been misled on that.
 
Scary.

So We, you know, the People, do not get to decide what is acceptable and not in our own culture anymore? Judicial tyrants decide that for us now, do they?

Scary.

We never have. Our Constitution was set up so that the rights of the minority could not be over-run by the tyranny of the majority. Constitutional rights are not such that they are put to a "popular vote" (although gay marriage would be approved by a popular vote today). The reality is....America is not always quick to get it right, but gets it right eventually. Long live freedom in this great country!!!!
 
Well, you did seem quite upset with the ruling on the first page. Silly gays trying to get the same rights as us, wow.
What is silly is they already have the same exact rights as I do. But I am sure that is hard to get through the thick walls at times... but some are just late bloomers on certain subjects, I suppose.
 
If we have to allow heterosexual marriage, we have to allow heterosexual child marriage, right? Where does your tradition end?
Well now, is that our tradition, is it? If it is so written, let it be done. You certainly are not against it, right? I mean, why not just be for everything, chaos is a good thing, isn't it?
 
What is silly is they already have the same exact rights as I do. But I am sure that is hard to get through the thick walls at times... but some are just late bloomers on certain subjects, I suppose.

weird how many judges and court cases disagree with this then?
must be a big conspiracy lol

they will have the same rights as me and you soon though
 
There is a marriage contract that acts as a legal kinship establishing document. This is why all you have to do to get federal benefits (such as military dependency) is to show a marriage license, just as you would show either a birth certificate or adoption record to claim a child as a military dependent.

Yes, I know the government marriage contract establishes legal kinship, and I know you love your military benefits.
 
What is silly is they already have the same exact rights as I do. But I am sure that is hard to get through the thick walls at times... but some are just late bloomers on certain subjects, I suppose.
Except having their marriages recognized by the government and receiving the benefits that comes from having them recognized.
 
Yes, I know the government marriage contract establishes legal kinship, and I know you love your military benefits.

So why shouldn't two men or two women be able to establish legal kinship? What right is it of yours to vote against that for them?
 
Discrimination is allowed if you can show a legitimate purpose for doing so. There is a legitimate purpose in denying people who are convicted child molestors from being around children. There is no legitimate purpose to denying marriage to same sex couples. One if to protect children the other is merely for beliefs about sin or abnormality or maintaining tradition.
So, if we start redefining sex between adults and children in the future, or say the APA does, initially reclassifying what was thought to be child molestation now as an illness...perhaps later going so far as even legitimizing this type of relationship... and you were to disagree with this, what would be the proper recourse?

Surely if it was "the law" one wouldn't deny the "former" molester from performing his/her job babysitting your child would one? That would be rather like bullying. I mean, what does it all really matter in the course of history whether we believe that child molestation helps or hinders our progress? Right?

I mean if the APA certifies it does not truly hurt the child... or at least doesn't hurt most children? Come on, gotta be on the cool/hip side, give these poor folks a break, don't wanna discriminate, that would be so hurtful.
 
What is silly is they already have the same exact rights as I do. But I am sure that is hard to get through the thick walls at times... but some are just late bloomers on certain subjects, I suppose.

"Everyone has the same right to marry someone of the same race."
-Lots of people, 50 years ago.

"That argument is bull****."
-Supreme Court

Well now, is that our tradition, is it? If it is so written, let it be done. You certainly are not against it, right? I mean, why not just be for everything, chaos is a good thing, isn't it?

I'm not for everything, you're the only one who thinks we have to be. Alternatively:
If heterosexual marriage doesn't mean we have to be for bestiality, why does homosexual marriage mean we have to be for bestiality?
 
Could one imagine being forced to tolerate allowing a convicted child molester to baby sit one's children? But, under the indistinct banner of tolerance you are waving, one could easily make the case that they should tolerate such nonsense.

Would be hoist on their own petard, wouldn't they? Its like wanting wind energy, but not wanting those big wind turbines in their own backyard...you know, messing up the view and killing all the birds
.




Some people will always dream up 'reasons' to reserve rights to themselves and deny them to others.

This is nothing new, it's been going on for a long time.
 
We never have. Our Constitution was set up so that the rights of the minority could not be over-run by the tyranny of the majority. Constitutional rights are not such that they are put to a "popular vote" (although gay marriage would be approved by a popular vote today). The reality is....America is not always quick to get it right, but gets it right eventually. Long live freedom in this great country!!!!
You haven't studied your history properly or thoroughly. Sure we can, in reality we the people can do as we want... but we agree to abide by the rules as long as those rules are ours, as a whole. You saw what happened in the Revolution when the tyranny of the minority, King and Parliament, overstepped their boundaries.

Freedom hardly means that everyone just gets to do whatever they want, or whatever they can try to compel a majority to do when that majority finally says no.
 
So why shouldn't two men or two women be able to establish legal kinship? What right is it of yours to vote against that for them?

I don't see any reason they can't establish kinship just fine through private contract. As for military benefits dependent on legal kinship, they don't need to set that standard. They can just ask the individual who they want to have those benefits and limit it to only one person.
 
1.)So, if we start redefining sex between adults and children in the future, or say the APA does, initially reclassifying what was thought to be child molestation now as an illness...perhaps later going so far as even legitimizing this type of relationship... and you were to disagree with this, what would be the proper recourse?

2.)Surely if it was "the law" one wouldn't deny the "former" molester from performing his/her job babysitting your child would one? That would be rather like bullying. I mean, what does it all really matter in the course of history whether we believe that child molestation helps or hinders our progress? Right?

3.) I mean if the APA certifies it does not truly hurt the child... or at least doesn't hurt most children? Come on, gotta be on the cool/hip side, give these poor folks a break, don't wanna discriminate, that would be so hurtful.

1.) instant failure, why would the APA push to legalize child rape and violate the rights of others. THeres no recourse because you arent talking about RIGHTS lol
2.) this doesnt even make sense, Could you stay on topic and make ONE honest post that doesnt instantly fail? ONE
3.) APA does not decide on RIGHTS

sorry your post and analogies complete fail.

DO you have anything of intellectual merit to post or even something logically and honestly sound?
 
Except having their marriages recognized by the government and receiving the benefits that comes from having them recognized.
Well, if they want that, they play by the majority's rules then, just like I do. They have the same rights of marriage as do I, exactly.
 
"Everyone has the same right to marry someone of the same race."
-Lots of people, 50 years ago.

"That argument is bull****."
-Supreme Court



I'm not for everything, you're the only one who thinks we have to be. Alternatively:
If heterosexual marriage doesn't mean we have to be for bestiality, why does homosexual marriage mean we have to be for bestiality?
Can you supply your sources for all that mess?

Oh, and if you hadn't previously noticed, we have a track record with heterosexual marriage. Check it out.
 
This ruling has a lot of great stuff.

Fourth, the state defendants’ position suffers from a glaring inconsistency. Even assuming that children raised by same-sex couples fare worse than children raised by heterosexual married couples, the state defendants fail to explain why Michigan law does not similarly exclude certain classes of heterosexual couples from marrying whose children persistently have had “sub-optimal” developmental outcomes.

According to Rosenfeld’s study, children raised by suburban residents academically outperformed those children raised by rural and urban residents. Likewise, “middle class and poor families are ‘sub-optimal’ compared to well-off families, and couples with less formal education are “sub-optimal” compared to couples with more formal education.” Pls.’ Ex. 31 at 5. A child’s racial background is another predictive indicator of future success, as the study showed that “the probability of making good progress through school is greater in the U.S. for children of Asian descent than for children of all other racial groups.” Id.

Taking the state defendants’ position to its logical conclusion, the empirical evidence at hand should require that only rich, educated, suburban-dwelling, married Asians may marry, to the exclusion of all other heterosexual couples. Obviously the state has not adopted this policy and with good reason. The absurdity of such a requirement is self-evident. Optimal academic outcomes for children cannot logically dictate which groups may marr
 
NOthing has changed for you years there hasnt been on solid reason to deny others equal rights on this issue and there wont be. Everyone of them has been destroyed and fouind to be a failure.

Equality is winning and it has some people very scared and angry but nobody cares about thier meaningless feelings. THey lost, are losing and will have to get over it.
 
Can you supply your sources for all that mess?

Oh, and if you hadn't previously noticed, we have a track record with heterosexual marriage. Check it out.

I was paraphrasing.

Supreme Court of the United States said:
Because we reject the notion that the mere "equal application" of a statute containing racial classifications is enough to remove the classifications from the Fourteenth Amendment's proscription of all invidious racial discriminations, we do not accept the State's contention that these statutes should be upheld if there is any possible basis for concluding that they serve a rational purpose. The mere fact of equal application does not mean that our analysis of these statutes should follow the approach we have taken in cases involving no racial discrimination where the Equal Protection Clause has been arrayed against a statute discriminating between the kinds of advertising which may be displayed on trucks in New York City, Railway Express Agency, Inc. v. New York, 336 U.S. 106 (1949), or an exemption in Ohio's ad valorem tax for merchandise owned by a nonresident in a storage warehouse, Allied Stores of Ohio, [388 U.S. 1, 9] Inc. v. Bowers, 358 U.S. 522 (1959). In these cases, involving distinctions not drawn according to race, the Court has merely asked whether there is any rational foundation for the discriminations, and has deferred to the wisdom of the state legislatures. In the case at bar, however, we deal with statutes containing racial classifications, and the fact of equal application does not immunize the statute from the very heavy burden of justification which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes drawn according to race.
 
I was paraphrasing.
Well, I am assuming since we obviously can break with tradition in the state's jurisdiction "which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes" then we can break tradition wherever it is we really please, correct?

You folks want your way and we, in "fair" turn, want ours... let the battle continue as long as either side is willing to engage.
 
Well, I am assuming since we obviously can break with tradition in the state's jurisdiction "which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes" then we can break tradition wherever it is we really please, correct?

You folks want your way and we, in "fair" turn, want ours... let the battle continue as long as either side is willing to engage.

tradition simply doesnt matter to individual rights :shrug: you posted another failed strawman
 
Well, I am assuming since we obviously can break with tradition in the state's jurisdiction "which the Fourteenth Amendment has traditionally required of state statutes" then we can break tradition wherever it is we really please, correct?

You folks want your way and we, in "fair" turn, want ours... let the battle continue as long as either side is willing to engage.

You're cherry picking a phrase and doing it wrong. It has never been in anyone's tradition for the states to violate equal protection. Every judge since Windsor has ruled that same-sex marriage bans violate equal protection. Yours is the side wanting to restrict freedom, on no basis other than your personal disapproval. That is not an argument you are going to win in a constitutional challenge, and I'm thankful to God that America works that way.

Keep fighting, if stopping two men from marrying each other is really that important to you. If it has such a profound impact on your life that you must spend energy to stop it, keep spending that energy. Keep fighting. Just know that you've already lost. The precedent is already set, the arguments made, and the "will of the people" is abandoning your side faster than anyone expected.
 
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