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Thread: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Intent (or not) is not the same thing as motive.

    "Motive" is why the crime is taking place. You have to establish that as part of your theory of the crime. Motive is about detective work. It demonstrates that the accused had a reason for what he did. Failing to establish that the accused had a motive makes the prosecutor have a more difficult job.
    And that is what hate crime is about.

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    you want to punish someone specifically for their expression and thought, and that is wrong.
    False. The additional punishment is for motive, because motive matters.

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    False. The additional punishment is for motive, because motive matters.
    Yes, you obviously support punishing people differently based upon their motive for the crime they committed, the harm they cause others. If they have doubleplusungood reasons they should obviously be sent to miniluv.

    Thank you for proving my point that you support the notion of thought crime.

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    False. Spewing crap during a crime is not sufficient for a hate crime conviction.
    His words give away his motives.
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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Yes, you obviously support punishing people differently based upon their motive for the crime they committed.
    You don't agree with different punishment for first and second degree murder and self defense? You think all killings, regardless of context, should be prosecuted as manslaughter?

    You don't agree with charging someone for terrorism with something other than manslaughter?

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    The difference in a hate crime is it is a crime against a group of people, not just a single person. The way I understand it is I can beat you up simply because you are black, but when I or my group instill fear in others is when it becomes a hate crime.
    You have to beat them up one at a time. If you hate someone for his membership in a group you hate, fine, but if you beat him to death because of it, that's turning hate into a crime.
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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You don't agree with different punishment for first and second degree murder and self defense?
    That is not at all what I said, nor could what I said be even reasonably be misconstrued as such.


    Killing in self-defense isn't even a crime. Nor should it be, as it is an act without aggression.

    Second degree murder is an aggressive homicide with intent but not premeditation.

    First degree murder is an aggressive homicide with premeditation and intent.

    The distinction between these three things has nothing to do with "motive," which isn't about what they did but why they did it. If you want "hate crimes" then you want to punish why they did it, which is different from whether or not they meant to do it, which is itself different from whether or not they had time beforehand and made a plan to do it.



    What difference should it make if x kills y because x wants to steal y's shoes or because he found out y was sleeping with x's wife or because he doesn't like y's skin tone? The act is the same, a premeditated and intentional killing; none of the reasons above justify the action in any way.
    Last edited by JayDubya; 03-21-14 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Beating someone to death in aggression for any reason is already criminal, as it should be.

    If you want to punish him more severely than anyone else who beats someone to death in aggression for his speech or his thoughts, then yes, you want to punish someone specifically for their expression and thought, and that is wrong.
    I think the point might be that the racial hatred prompted him to push things farther than he otherwise may have.

    Also, it a group of individuals is more likely to be targeted for this kind of thing then I do understand the reasoning for calling them out as a group, specifically, that is included as a one protected under the law.
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    Beating someone to death in aggression for any reason is already criminal, as it should be.

    If you want to punish him more severely than anyone else who beats someone to death in aggression for his speech or his thoughts, then yes, you want to punish someone specifically for their expression and thought, and that is wrong.
    I see where you're coming from, but the motive needs to be considered, and some motives punished more severely than others. If Joe kills Bill because he thinks Bill is threatening him, or Joe kills Bill because he thinks Bill screwed his wife, or Joe kills Bill in a fight over money, or Joe kills Bill because Bill is black, there's four different crimes.
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
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    Re: Chicago Man Facing Hate Crime/Murder Charge

    Quote Originally Posted by JayDubya View Post
    That is not at all what I said, nor could what I said be even reasonably be misconstrued as such.


    Killing in self-defense isn't even a crime. Nor should it be, as it is an act without aggression.

    Second degree murder is an aggressive homicide with intent but not premeditation.

    First degree murder is an aggressive homicide with premeditation and intent.

    The distinction between these three things has nothing to do with "motive."

    And killing with the intent of striking fear in the target population is a hate crime.


    What difference should it make if x kills y because x wants to steal y's shoes or because he found out y was sleeping with x's wife or because he doesn't like y's skin tone? The act is the same, a premeditated and intentional killing; none of the reasons above justify the action in any way.
    Targeting a population is more damaging to society than targeting for property.

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