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Thread: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

  1. #131
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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It would not be in China's best interests to turn on the United States, especially with the debt owed China and the loss of a huge market for their products. China has already made moves into Russia, and will likely continue to do so. But American certainly needs a leader, and quickly.
    Exactly......

    That's why I highly doubt China would do anything - we only basically supply China's economy, with everything from jobs to steel. So I don't think China would get involved.

    If I was Obama I would tell Putin to pull out of the Ukraine otherwise he will have another Afghanistan on his hands - just this time the United States will be eliminating his assets via carpet bombings.

    Also, there is no way Russia could ever defend themselves against the US in aerial combat or naval combat, and Putin certainly wont launch nukes, if he threatened and was serious China would certainly get involved and would put Russia down themselves.

    Besides, China and Russia were never buddies to begin with. The United States is certainly more of an asset to China than Russia ever will be.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting - The Washington Post



    Thus ends the "new thinking" of Gorbachev. In his speech to a joint session of parliament, Putin said that Ukraine was the line that the US should not have crossed.

    If these people are not careful, this may go down in history as the beginning of WWIII
    I think our approach to this event will set the stage for the rest of the 21st century in regards to geopolitics. So far, the response has been a complete failure, but It is to early to tell. Sanctions will do one of two things. They will either embolden and enrage Russia and Russian's similar to the stiff sanctions on Germany after WW1, or they will bring Russia to the bargaining table. A measured response is important, one in which non compliance results in stiffer sanctions, but we must also keep our eyes on their reaction to the sanctions and not make the same mistakes as we did with Germany after WW1. Sanctions must be stiff and temporary instead of long lasting and crippling to the people. Sanctions should only ever be used to weaken an apponent prior to military action. At some point, a military response is the only responsible thing to do in order to keep the citizens of the sanctioned country from suffering the plight of their government.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Certainly corruption was a factor, as well as the Ukrainian people wanting to be, quite naturally, be more aligned with the West. Why would any people want to be controlled by Russia?
    No one want's to be part of the "USSR reboot" - even if they adhere to the socialist model presently. They've been there and done that.

    All Russia/Putin wants is resources despite what Putin says or his excuses. Putin is no better than a Viking marauder....

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Thee Koch Brothers? The Tea Party? Tom Cruz??? None of this makes any sense.
    It's ok. Don't be confused. I'll walk you through it.

    You said

    He quite accurately sees Barrack Obama as weak and way out of his depth
    I responded that

    I honestly don't know what is in Putin's mind with regards to Barack Obama. But Putin is intelligent and if he is indeed seeing accurately, he sees a man whose instincts are being constrained by political opponents who are punching above their weight.
    So you said he sees Obama as weak. I said that if he's seeing accurately he sees a man whose instincts are being constrained by his political opponents. So you put forward what you think Putin sees when he views Obama. Then I put forward what I think Putin sees when he views Obama. Do you follow so far?

    Then I gave an example of how Obama's political opponents try to constrain him. One of Obama's political opponents is the Koch brothers. Here's my example:

    Men like the Koch brothers who bankroll the Tea Party. Because their ideology is unappealing except to those who are either rich or susceptible to hate and fear mongering, they cannot compete politically on a national level. Rather they are confined to pockets of the country that tend to be sparsely populated. However because of the strong in influence of geographical state boundaries, and political boundaries that have been devised to give the party that draws them the advantage, they are able to exert more influence than their numbers would otherwise permit. Recently it is this group that was able to shut down the entire US government because the Speaker of the House of Representatives was a weak leader who did not have the courage to stand up to them. However, it was Barack Obama that had the strength and courage to stand up to the childish cabal lead by Rand Paul, and Tom Cruz.
    Is it clear to you now or does it have to be broken down further so that you understand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I said George Bush was pushing for Ukrainian entrance into NATO, as well as Georgia in fact. Are you seriously denying this??
    Ok. Let's go over that again step by step.

    I said

    He sees that the US, through NATO, is trying to push it's way right up to Russia's borders through it's recent activity in Ukraine.
    But you said that was incorrect

    That is incorrect. When George Bush was President he pushed for Ukarianes membership in NATO
    You said it is incorrect, but at the same time you say that George Bush, the President of the United States pushed for NATO membership for Ukraine. Therefore you refuted yourself. Get it?

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    So you're using opinion pieces as fact?
    I thought some people believe anything they see on Fox. But here's something

    Top U.S. official visits protesters in Kiev as Obama admin. ups pressure on Ukraine president Yanukovich - CBS News

    U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland visited Independence Square in the Ukrainian capital Kiev on Wednesday, the U.S. embassy said, and an opposition leader said she talked to protesters.

    A spokesman for the embassy said she had visited Maidan, where several thousand of protesters were calling for the resignation of President Viktor Yanukovich.
    Here she is passing out cookies to protesters



    Here's John McCain with the protesters



    Then right after passing out cookies to the protesters, Nuland goes to meet the head of state, Yanukovych

    So like I said in the first point, the US fomented protest against Yanukovych

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The Koch brothers?

    Is that the progressive answer to everything???

    You do realize the Koch brothers aren't even in the top 15 when it comes to political donations to any party despite their wealth?

    Furthermore, how the hell would the Koch brothers have ANY influence over Obama whatsoever?
    The point was that Obama's political opponents seek to constrain his instincts. The example of the Koch brothers is a good one. They are opponents of Obama. They help bankroll the Tea Party. Rand Paul and Tom Cruz are supported by the Tea Party. Both men lead the effort to shut down the government to try to constrain Obama.

    It's very easy to understand.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Passing out cookies != fomenting protest

    I'm seriously not sure why you continue to push this conspiracy theory as a fact in an otherwise serious discussion, it's just weird.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Passing out cookies != fomenting protest

    I'm seriously not sure why you continue to push this conspiracy theory as a fact in an otherwise serious discussion, it's just weird.
    It is unprecedented for an Assistant Secretary of State to pass out cookies to people protesting against a head of state right before going to meet the head of state. What arrogance. What an insult. Why? Because the head of state refuses to sign a deal with the EU. A deal which BTW, will cause so much suffering to the people of the Ukraine, just like what happened in Greece.

    Was is remarkable and weird, is that despite the fact that you cannot produce one single instance of someone at the level of Assistant Secretary of State doing so before, you want to insist that the US did not foment protest in the Ukraine. It is simply amazing that you want to engage such an intellectual insult. Amazing!

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    So you said he sees Obama as weak. I said that if he's seeing accurately he sees a man whose instincts are being constrained by his political opponents. So you put forward what you think Putin sees when he views Obama. Then I put forward what I think Putin sees when he views Obama. Do you follow so far?
    So Barrack Obama can't act as freely as he would like because of the Tea Party and the Koch brothers. I see your point of view here. Barrack Obama himself is a strong leader but it is other people who are making him weak.

    Then I gave an example of how Obama's political opponents try to constrain him. One of Obama's political opponents is the Koch brothers. Here's my example:


    Is it clear to you now or does it have to be broken down further so that you understand?



    Ok. Let's go over that again step by step.

    I said
    He sees that the US, through NATO, is trying to push it's way right up to Russia's borders through it's recent activity in Ukraine. But you said that was incorrect
    And it is incorrect.
    You said it is incorrect, but at the same time you say that George Bush, the President of the United States pushed for NATO membership for Ukraine. Therefore you refuted yourself. Get it?
    This is what I said. George Bush, who is no longer President of the United States, wanted the Ukraine and Georgia in NATO but this idea was rejected by the Democrats. Western Europeans and, mostly, the Russians. But George Bush is no longer President and Barrack Obama has shown no interest in the Ukraine joining NATO, even the that's what the majority of the Ukrainian people want. Your claim that "He sees that the US, through NATO, is trying to push it's way right up to Russia's borders through it's recent activity in Ukraine". That is totally and completely false, unless you are arguing that George Bush is still trying to personally get the Ukraine into the NATO. Is that it? I r.epeat. The US is not interested in the Ukraine joining NATO. It was a non-starter and I explained why.

    If you are looking for excuses as to why Russia should invade the Ukraine you'll have to find another. Confusing America's interests with those of George Bush is not helpful to your cause.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It is unprecedented for an Assistant Secretary of State to pass out cookies to people protesting against a head of state right before going to meet the head of state. What arrogance. What an insult. Why? Because the head of state refuses to sign a deal with the EU. A deal which BTW, will cause so much suffering to the people of the Ukraine, just like what happened in Greece.

    Was is remarkable and weird, is that despite the fact that you cannot produce one single instance of someone at the level of Assistant Secretary of State doing so before, you want to insist that the US did not foment protest in the Ukraine. It is simply amazing that you want to engage such an intellectual insult. Amazing!
    Are you seriously making the claim that the US Assistant Secretary of State bribed the Ukrainian people with cookies? Or their government?

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