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Thread: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    No, not whatever. If you're going to complain about something, get it right.

    According to its Constitution, Ukrainian is the official national language of the nation of Ukraine. However, Russian has long been the unofficial language in many administrative regions (oblasts) of southern and eastern Ukraine. Ergo, the Minority Languages Law of 2012 guaranteed that another language could be used in documents, courts, schools, and other government institutions in areas of Ukraine where the percentage of representatives of national minorities exceeds 10% of the total population of a defined administrative district.

    After the fall of the Yanukovych government, a bill was introduced in the Rada (parliament) to repeal the Minority Languages Act and this proposal was passed by a vote of 232 MPs out of 450 (226 required for passage). However, acting President Oleksandr Turchynov vetoed the bill. The Minority Languages Act of 2012 remains intact and unchanged and a majority of MPs have since come to the conclusion that repealing the law would be more nationally divisive than multiple languages. Russian thus remains a protected language in 13 of Ukraine's 27 administrative regions. Hungarian, Romanian, and Moldovan remain protected languages in the Oblast of Zakarpattia.

    In signing an Association Agreement with the European Union today, the government of Ukraine has agreed to abide by the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.
    Blah blah.. I know all of this.. you are reading way too much in to my posts. One liners and smart ass comments are just that.

    What you aren't connecting in your position is.. this was voted on by the Rada on February 23rd.. the following day of the illegal impeachment of Yanukovych, yes it was illegal. They were short 10 votes and forgot to allow a Supreme Court review, you know what's required in the Ukrainian Constitution for impeachment. But I am sure you knew this. So their first official business after the Coup was to vote to ban other traditional languages.. and it passed. Russia entered Crimea on the 24th of February. Still, For 4 days Turchynov let that law sit before vetoing it after international outrage and pressure by EU members and others to show them the foolish move they made.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The blunder was thinking they could derail Russia's better offer to Yanukovych by removing him from office, not realizing the consequence would be Russia's seizing Crimea. The blame for this VERY BIG blunder lies the the President of the United States, Barack Hussein Obama.

    No doubt about it.
    Or once again our intelligence apparatus that was as clueless as just before 911 or regarding so called WMD's in Iraq. There's your blunder and it keeps happening no matter how well funded it is.
    Last edited by EnigmaO01; 03-21-14 at 04:19 PM.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    For 4 days Turchynov let that law sit before vetoing it after international outrage and pressure by EU members and others to show them the foolish move they made.
    It was never a law. At best it was a failed proposal. You are equating a parliamentary draft measure with codified law. Any proposed draft law must first be voted upon in the Verkhovna Rada. If the draft measure has the required votes, it is then sent to the president for approval. The president has two options:

    1) Sign the draft measure into law within 15 days.
    2) Veto the draft measure within 15 days.

    Turchynov opted to veto, thus the draft measure was never approved by him as codified law.

    Parliament can overrule a presidential draft measure veto with a 2/3 majority vote. In this case, the president *must* sign the law into effect. This overrule procedure was never entertained.

    Thus, neither available recourse for codifying the draft measure into law (presidential approval/legislature overrule) was employed.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Without nuclear weapons Russia could steam roll over Poland. Poland's military is only for small bordering counties.
    Russia could roll across every non-nuclear power in East and West Europe easily if it wanted to. All are relying on the US for defense. A BIG mistake on their part.
    It's been a while since I read a post so utterly devoid of veracity.

    Quite impressive, actually.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    How is he backing down and what do you propose he do he is not already doing? Do you want us to go to war?
    There it is again. The only two options are to do nothing, or all out war.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Or once again our intelligence apparatus that was as clueless as just before 911 or regarding so called WMD's in Iraq. There's your blunder and it keeps happening no matter how well funded it is.
    The only intelligence apparatus needed for this was a brain. Some consideration of the strategic importance of Sevastopol, the strong historical ties Russia has with Ukraine, the geographical proximity of Ukraine, the demographics of the Crimean population, the location of sround 20,000 Russian troops in Crimea, and the mindset of a Russian nationalist, would lead one to come to the conclusion that a Russian take over of Crimea was likely after the deal that was offered to Yanukovych by Putin was destroyed by Yanokovcyh's overthrow.

    This was a failure of intelligence of Barack Obama.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I don't think it's in anyone's interests at this point for there to be a civil war in Ukraine. I think both sides will try to avoid this. BUT THAT IS ONLY IF THE US DOES NOT TRY TO PUSH NATO INTO UKRAINE. If that happens, then I think Russia may calculate that it's in their interests to create as much instability in Ukraine as possible, and then you could very well see a civil war there. However, I don't think that would be a wise move on the part of Russia. They should be satisfied that they have secured Crimea and tolerate the discomfort with having NATO next to them. But that is me. I could see a Russian nationalist like Putin thinking otherwise.
    Both parties trying to pull Ukraine towards their side will likely lead to a civil war without either of them trying to make it happen.

    That's pretty good. However, a couple of things. First of all, who are you refering to in, "His actions are another interesting question?" Second, Russia would not gain anything by engaging snipers to kill protesters and thus derail the peace deal. It only makes their task of rebuilding Russia much more difficult as it results in many more obstacles. Neither do I think the US did it, although that is more likely. It may have been the work of the neo-Nazis who simply wanted to get Yanukovych out. It's also highly likely that it was the work of some 3rd party who would have an interest in driving a wedge between the US and Russia. Someone say that was not pleased by the recent cooperation between Russia and the US with regards to Iran and Syria. That may actually be the case.
    "His actions" was a reference to Yanukovich as the post I was responding to said Yanukovich's actions were partly the cause of his downfall. Were far right elements responsible for the snipers I would not it consider any less plausible that the U.S. was ultimately to blame as America has never shied away from using such groups in the past.

    Good response. I agree. Do you have a reference to support your assertion that we set up a banking unit through a spook bank?
    That would be Riggs-Valmet, though Valmet already technically existed. Riggs Bank bought half of its shares and began staffing the company with various people, including some involved in Iran-Contra, and soon billions of dollars were being funneled out of state coffers and into offshore bank accounts by Soviet officials involved with the unit. Several major oligarchs, such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky of Yukos, owe their success to Riggs-Valmet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    And you know this how - because of your deep and introspective relationship with Putin?
    Well, I just presume that Putin does not have the power to predict the future. That would have to be the case if what you are saying was true. Seems the logical view would be that Putin did what he needed to protect his country's interests and may have hoped that this would get him a little leeway on future matters where the U.S. would normally object. Any notion that he was plotting all of this before there was even any hint that he would have the opportunity is quite ridiculous.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
    - Khalil Gibran

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    All these 'threats' are just posturing and silly, IMO.

    Btw, notice how America punished some Russians directly...but NOT Putin.

    In other words...'we want to seem like we are doing something, but we don't want to actually do anything'.

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    It was never a law. At best it was a failed proposal. You are equating a parliamentary draft measure with codified law. Any proposed draft law must first be voted upon in the Verkhovna Rada.
    It was voted on and passed the Rada. That's not up for debate. It happened. Where you and I disagree is the fact the action even took place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simpleχity View Post
    If the draft measure has the required votes, it is then sent to the president for approval. The president has two options:

    1) Sign the draft measure into law within 15 days.
    2) Veto the draft measure within 15 days.

    Turchynov opted to veto, thus the draft measure was never approved by him as codified law.
    And I never said it was codified law, but rather a repeal law which passed and was in the process of becoming law for 4 days at the peak of tensions between both sides. Turchynov sat on it for 4 days which gave the image of Russian facing an uncertain future in Ukraine. Perception is this situation is reality to many. That's the reality of what happen. That's what the Russians used as justification to go into Crimea. That's all I am saying. But who knows what happens in Ukraine after this.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: US, Russia exchange threats at tense UN meeting

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    And I never said it was codified law, but rather a repeal law...
    You said and I quote...

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Still, For 4 days Turchynov let that law...
    It wasn't a law. It was a *draft measure* and can only become law upon the signature of the president of Ukraine. It doesn't even matter which president you prefer, Yanukovych would have vetoed it and Turchynov did veto it.

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Turchynov sat on it for 4 days which gave the image of Russian facing an uncertain future in Ukraine.
    The president has 15 days to either sign a draft measure into law or veto it. Russia knows the legislative procedure perfectly well and realized action (invasion) was necessary immediately...before the draft measure could be vetoed by Turchynov.

    The Kremlin line that ethnic Russians in Crimea were oppressed and under threat sounds like it possibly might be plausible to some Westerners, but I've been to Crimea many times over the years (as recently as last November) and neither saw, nor read about, nor heard about any such oppression. The crime rate was low but the perception was that Crimea functioned as Ukraine's Sicily because of organized crime (the Russian Mafia) who would launder money there and then purchase resorts etc. True enough, the ethnic Russian majority desired a return to Russia proper, but the Kremlin justification for invasion (oppression) is an utter fabrication.

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