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Thread: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post

    Moreover while France made this move. They also came out and told all that are standing with the Election that goes back to May. Which means they Validate Yanokovich as the Official Elected Government of the Ukraine.
    Are you quite certain they weren't referring to the upcoming elections to be held on May 25 of this year?

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    What I find surprising about the American aspect of this issue is how bumbling we've been. Where are the realists in the State Dept? Why wasn't this scenario gamed out long before?

    Instead we've been championing World World Gay against the Russians, patting ourselves on the back for sending Billie Jean King to Sochi. Oh, that will show the Russians.

    From the outside it sure looks like a smug group think has metastasized in our foreign policy establishment. The days of annexation are far past, no one would do this. Why not? What are the downsides? What effective stick can be wielded to deter such annexation? If there is no effective deterrent, then why would countries refrain? Because the new standards of international affairs frown on this and because it hasn't happened in a long while. Well, why hasn't it happened in a long while? If those deterrent conditions change, then why expect a behavior to remain checked?

    Everyone in the world doesn't think like a Westerner nor like a liberal Westerner.
    The American electorate trivialized the office of the Presidency by electing an unproven community organizer to the most important position in the free world. They in turn demeaned themselves by forming a circle around this incompetent by refusing any investigations into his background, his relationships, the scandals that have plagued his presidency and his foreign policy screw-ups. I hope lessons are learned by some of the brighter members of the left.

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Since this was a done-deal with the USA prior to it happening in my opinion, I don't expect anything but words until Americans get bored with their fruit-fly attention span.
    What makes you think this was a done deal?
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The American electorate trivialized the office of the Presidency by electing an unproven community organizer to the most important position in the free world. They in turn demeaned themselves by forming a circle around this incompetent by refusing any investigations into his background, his relationships, the scandals that have plagued his presidency and his foreign policy screw-ups. I hope lessons are learned by some of the brighter members of the left.
    But look on the bright side, all those liberals proved that they weren't racists by committing racism and voting for a man only because he was black. Being able to feel good about yourself is surely worth any price that the rest of the country and the world has to suffer. Besides, a bunch of dudes in Oslo concurred and gave him a Nobel Peace Prize and nominated him after he had only served in office for two weeks. See everyone gets to feel good and enlightened about themselves.

    Competence and experience? Man, you're just asking too much from liberals.

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    Next stop on Putin's "liberation tour" Moldova.
    Will he wait until the next Olympics?

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by RiverDad View Post
    But look on the bright side, all those liberals proved that they weren't racists by committing racism and voting for a man only because he was black. Being able to feel good about yourself is surely worth any price that the rest of the country and the world has to suffer. Besides, a bunch of dudes in Oslo concurred and gave him a Nobel Peace Prize and nominated him after he had only served in office for two weeks. See everyone gets to feel good and enlightened about themselves.

    Competence and experience? Man, you're just asking too much from liberals.
    What's that whining noise?
    "I did not mean that Conservatives are generally stupid people. I meant that stupid people are generally Conservatives."
    -John Stuart Mill-

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    These are conflicts where strict military power is of little importance, Russia is grossly outmatched by NATO but that clearly hasn't stopped them in the past in going after non-NATO nations. What we need instead of military power is economic and deployment power, we need to provide Ukraine with monetary aid and expertise so their economy doesn't collapse and they can run a working government. Russia can and will use every criminal means to expand its power in Ukraine, undermining the local and national government to prevent the government from standing on its own and moving out of its sphere.

    Seriously Russia aint going to back down from this ****, and now its time to fight for Ukraine and give them all the support they need.
    Russia understands that there is no effective military response without the parties to the conflict incurring prohibitively high costs relative to the military objectives involved. Hence, it has calculated that it has the strategic flexibility to act as it has.

    As noted elsewhere in this thread, I support providing economic and financial assistance to Ukraine. Hopefully, that assistance can help it overcome its substantial economic and financial problems, begin developing a stable and response political system, and improve the living standard of its people.

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    The problem with what you are putting forward here is that the US is going to find it impossible to continue to spend one trillion dollars on defense. It has been able to do so only because of the dollar. However, after the financial crisis of 2008, the dollar's power is on the wane as countries move away from using it as a reserve currency. What the US needs to do is focus more on developing relationships with countries, especially some that it has previously viewed as hostile, that could serve to hinder Russia's influence in the world. Iran would be a great place to start. If the US and Europe had good relations with Iran, Russia would be completely thrown off balance, especially in the Middle East.
    I'm not advocating anything close to trillion dollar annual budgets. I do believe a budget that maintains the military's manpower at current levels and is at least stable as a share of GDP at current levels would be a better approach than the sharp reductions that have been proposed.

    With respect to Iran, both the U.S. and EU have significant differences and concerns with Iran. Whether Iran is willing to accommodate those needs in exchange for a peaceful civilian energy program remains to be seen. Moreover, Iran has shown little indication that it will cease supporting its proxies e.g., Hezbollah, who pose threats to strategic U.S. Mideast allies.

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    That would be a ridiculously escalation, and you know we can launch a nuke anywhere on Earth they don't really need to be in Ukraine to be more effective. Russia just declared Crimea to be part of their territory and you want us to forcibly enter it?

    But I agree with bringing Ukraine into NATO

    This is poker game. Nuclear weapons are irrelevant as weapons neither US nor Russia could use them. But they are a massive PR statement.

    The question is whether Russia can claim without dispute that the Crimea is their country now. There are still Ukraine military posts that have not been surrendered and held by 20,000 Ukraine troops (unless that has since changed.) Even a few American forces or NATO forces there would make it impossible for Russia to drive them out.

    Would they shoot down American supplies being flown in? Is Russia going to start a shooting war with the USA? Think of history and West Berlin. Just 200 Marines - 100 each in a couple Ukraine held base in Crimea would be a constant huge PR thorn in Putin's side. What the hell is he going to do?

    This SHOULD have been done before the "vote" and immediately when Russia started declaring basically military take-over of Crimea. I think it still could be done.

    The same for NATO or USA troops on the border of the rest of Ukraine.

    Why nuclear weapons in Ukraine? We could unite virtually all of former Soviet Eastern and Southern block countries to our side if we'd show some courage - ie turning them rather solidly "pro-West" and any agreed upon (with the country) USA and/or NATO presence in that country keeps Russia out. There also is inherent connection between FRIENDLY foreign troops on invitation by the locals as soldiers bring $$ in their pockets.

    The nukes (which would technically remain in our control) are huge PR for the entire former Eastern bloc countries. Since all this is on Russia's border, not ours, complexities are against Russia's advantage and favoring ours.

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    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Come on. We spend profoundly so much more on defense than the next two powers, you can't possibly tell me that we can't cut back and still remain enough ahead for the time being. Well, actually, maybe you can but I would like to hear what you have to say.

    It seems to me that our posture of having to spend such an incredible amount is a paranoid one. I have not tied our defense policy "solely to domestic desires". However, spending as much as we are cannot be sustained if we slip economically. And stubbornly trying to do so, no matter what the security environment, will certainly lead to economic decline that results in our being even less able to do so. Domestic strength is the foundation of military strength, and if we must choose between them at this point, it should be domestic first.

    In the long term, being capable of maintaining World military supremacy is not a given.

    Looking at the demographics, it may very well be that the future "natural" order of things is that China will one day surpass us in power. There may be nothing we can do about it without bankrupting ourselves. It seems to me that Empires which have failed to see that their sun is setting and thereby failed to yield to and manage it have imploded more completely than those that were more perceptive.
    It is true that the dollar expenditures on defense are very high. However, one should note that the cost structure of U.S. defense is higher than it is in other countries. The equivalent of a dollar in spending might purchase more elsewhere. For starters, wages for American soldiers are higher than those in some other countries. The development of weapons systems also cost less in other countries.

    At the same time, there is considerable lack of cost control that does need to be addressed. The Pentagon simply cannot function as it currently does where there is little predictability in costs of developing new weapons and cost overruns are par for the course. Budgetary mechanisms need to be developed and enforced to assure that projects such as the Joint Strike Fighter project are completed both on a timely basis and on budget. Given the delays in the project and costs involved, it is somewhat uncertain whether the new fighter jet will, in fact, be qualitatively superior to anything else available once it finally goes into service.

    The military also needs to improve its costs relative to waging war. It cannot maintain a cost structure where it consumes $300 million per day in Afghanistan (https://www.google.com/hostednews/af...JvsAlNkA?hl=en) without limiting its capacity to sustain a war effort. Otherwise, enemies will attain a competitive advantage from a strategy of waiting out the U.S.

    Also, I'm not arguing for an unrealistic goal of military preeminence. I am arguing that the U.S., along with its allies, should pursue a position of maintaining a relatively stable balance of power so that their major interests are safeguarded. Preeminence is not required for deterrence. One only need sufficient strength that the perceived costs of an enemy's pursuing an objective are prohibitive relative to the objective it is seeking.

    All in all, I'm not calling for a dramatic increase in military spending. I am suggesting that the planned cuts should be reduced. In the longer-term, the Pentagon needs to do much to improve its cost structure and such improvements will yield savings.

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