Page 15 of 15 FirstFirst ... 5131415
Results 141 to 143 of 143

Thread: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

  1. #141
    Sage
    RiverDad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    04-20-14 @ 02:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    5,039

    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Putting aside political arguments concerning the recent war in Iraq, there's little question that on a present value basis, the costs of the war were vastly higher than those associated with maintaining the prior containment regime.
    Without a doubt. This though is an inappropriate comparison. The sanctions regime was on its last legs. It was leaky as hell. The US commitment to maintaining the No-Fly-Zone was near its end. Other countries were circumventing the trade sanctions. The choice to be made was a war to oust Saddam or finding a way to live with an unrestrained Saddam. As a threat to Iran, he was useful. Look at Iranian influence in Iraq today. We've weakened on bad actor state and therein strengthened its neighbor.

    Moreover, the aspirations of people are, in part, a function of a society's structure (institutions, economics, culture, etc.) and history. The fundamental Sunni-Shia divide is part of the reason one has witnessed illiberal regimes in the Middle East.
    I think you're correct but you don't go to the more fundamental issue - 50% rate of consanguineous marriages. This preceded the birth of Islam and is woven deep into the regional cultures. Culture is an iterative loop, one cultural practice informs another which in turn influences the first practice. Cousin marriage allows for wealth and power to concentrate within a family over generations rather than being diluted. It protects the clan members like a State and Rule of Law would in a western society. We can't graft Democracy onto such a host, for the host will reject the foreign organ being grafted onto it.

    There's also a tendency for the U.S. to view others as we view ourselves.
    This is something that we CAN fix.

    Regional uprisings were quickly coined the "Arab Spring" in an analogy to the democratic Prague Spring. Not surprisingly, given the region's structural and historical context, the democratic illusions have proved largely unfounded.
    What do you mean "not surprisingly." To you and I, certainly, but I didn't see any foreign policy heavyweights making such predictions as these events unfolded. In fact, I saw Administration officials encouraging and cheering on such uprisings with the full expectation that magic would happen. And not to spare the Republicans, they too were doing the same. There is a dangerous level of intellectual inbreeding that shapes American foreign policy views.

    The U.S. can't dissociate from dealing with such governments when U.S. interests are at stake.
    What you describe as American interests are better described as Western interests or Industrialized Nations' interests. If we removed ME oil from the equation, it's really hard to articulate any compelling interest in the region. We don't import much from them, they don't generate much IP, we don't even export much to them. Now with oil back in the picture, America could substitute their oil with oil from Canada. Europe, China, Africa, South America and Japan can't though. They're the principal beneficiaries of what America is stabilizing. Let them carry the cost burden.

  2. #142
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Where I am now
    Last Seen
    09-11-17 @ 03:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    16,386

    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Either you misunderstood me or I was not sufficiently clear. My reference to the Containment regime concerned the policies that were in place prior to the war (select sanctions, limited no fly zones, etc.). I believe that approach was preferable to the war.

    The post-war outcome showed that Containment was less costly than the war (in terms of financial and human costs), less disruptive to regional stability (didn't alter the region's balance of power vis-a-vis Iran), and was highly effective in deterring Iraq from pursuing WMD (Iraq had not restarted WMD-related activities).
    Sorry, guess I misunderstood you...though I still stand beside what I typed.

    To be honest, I sort of speed read your post. No offense, but I run my business, I don't have the time or the inclination to get into gigantic discussions on chat forums on anything but financial subjects (I am a financial investor). I just come here to kill a little time (sometimes to learn/teach).

    I agree that containment was far better. But I still say that America has no business involving herself in the internal matters of other countries outside of those that pose a direct threat to the sovereignty of America (that does NOT include terrorism) OR if significant genocide is taking place.

    No other reason.

    If you want to know how I feel about almost any aspect of U.S. Foreign policy, just see what Ron Paul thinks about it...that will probably be what I think as well.

  3. #143
    Sage
    Montecresto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Last Seen
    03-13-16 @ 11:59 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    24,561

    Re: Kremlin: Crimea and Sevastopol are now part of Russia, not Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    They certainly do moreso than their adversaries.
    How do you sport such lies with a straight face, or maybe its not.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

Page 15 of 15 FirstFirst ... 5131415

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •