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Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

Wiseone said:
I can't believe people are this naive to believe this election is legitimate.
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I can't believe people are naive to believe the Ukrainian Government is legitimate. They removed a President unconstitutionally. They were short 10 votes and didn't go to the Constitutional Courts for review. But some how we view that as legitimate. Hypocrites.
 
austrianecon said:
I can't believe people are naive to believe the Ukrainian Government is legitimate. They removed a President unconstitutionally. They were short 10 votes and didn't go to the Constitutional Courts for review. But some how we view that as legitimate. Hypocrites.
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He fled the country, he removed himself.
 
Wiseone said:
Just because we've done some things that were wrong in the past doesn't give anyone the right to do them in the present!

And you don't understand the scale of the population, or rather you won't allow yourself to understand it. Its not corruption in the sense of companies getting fat checks from the government, its the ENTIRE GOVERNMENT existing to enrich a single person. Did any US President steal 70 billion dollars of tax dollars and put it into his own bank account? Ya the US has its problems but don't compare them to Ukraine's, and again even if they were similar THAT DOESN"T MEAN ANYTHING. If the US did wrong in the past that doesn't give other folks the right to do wrong today, how the **** does the US invading Iraq wrongly give Russia the right to invade the Ukraine?

Because democratically elected doesn't give you dictatorial powers or give you the right to rob your country
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Oh, please, "in the past" as though it wasn't just really recently, with many still happening. You really are devoted to your hypocritical way of looking at world events.
 
APACHERAT said:
95% :eek:

Putin seems to be more popular than Obama.

I wonder how many hanging chads there were ?

Maybe they should have asked for ID at the polls and the election would have turned out differently ?
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Did you hear the "Yes we can" chant by Crimeans? Little stick in the eye to Obama.
 
Summerwind said:
Oh, please, "in the past" as though it wasn't just really recently, with many still happening. You really are devoted to your hypocritical way of looking at world events.
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It doesn't matter if its in the past, HOW THE **** ARE THEY RELATED. How the **** does one country doing something wrong, whether today, or yesterday, or 5 years or 100 years ago give another country the right to do something wrong as well?

The US illegally invaded Iraq, how the **** does that give Russia the right to illegal invade the Crimea?
 
Wiseone said:
It doesn't matter if its in the past, HOW THE **** ARE THEY RELATED. How the **** does one country doing something wrong, whether today, or yesterday, or 5 years or 100 years ago give another country the right to do something wrong as well?

The US illegally invaded Iraq, how the **** does that give Russia the right to illegal invade the Crimea?
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It doesn't, it just makes anyone who gets their panties in a wad about it a hypocrite. Unless of course you show exactly the same disgust for the USA. Which iirc you don't.
 
Wiseone said:
It doesn't matter if its in the past, HOW THE **** ARE THEY RELATED. How the **** does one country doing something wrong, whether today, or yesterday, or 5 years or 100 years ago give another country the right to do something wrong as well?

The US illegally invaded Iraq, how the **** does that give Russia the right to illegal invade the Crimea?
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russia can only sustain these actions if it can prove that it is not the aggressor in any escalation.
 
Wiseone said:
He fled the country, he removed himself.
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He fled the country cause they impeached him illegally!!!!!!!! He was seeking help from Russia. Just like Arseniy Yatsenyuk left on a EU and US tour to drum up support.
 
Summerwind said:
We have done that, and then allowed for elections, how is this much different? We did it in Afghanistan and then again in Iraq, and both of those countries had to wait waaaaaaay longer than a month for a "free" election.
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Not even close to the same.

In Afghanistan:

We were attacked by al Qaeda which was based there and supported by the government (Taliban). No one in Crimea or Ukraine proper attacked Russia.

We are not going to annex Afghanistan. Russia is annexing Crimea.

The Afghanistan government is not by any stretch of the imagination a US puppet government. The Crimean government is a Russian puppet installed by the Russians without an election.

In Iraq:

The world (UN) had imposed sanctions on Iraq that included the authorization that military force be used to enforce a no-fly zone.

For years, Iraq shot at our military aircraft, which is an act of war.

Most countries in the world (the ones that have a robust foreign intelligence system, Britain, Germany, France and others) stated that Iraq had WMD's and would use them (hell even Saddam thought he still had them). Not just the US or Bush as the far left in the US likes to state.

Saddam used WMD's against our troops in the first Gulf War and on his own people.

After multiple attacks by Iraq against coalition military aircraft, the attacks we underwent in 9/11 and the overwhelming intelligence reports from multiple countries that WMD's still existed and that Saddam could sell them to al Qaeda or use them himself, the US with other countries took action.

We left Iraq and have not annexed any territory gained in battle since the Spanish-American War.

Russia is annexing Crimea, and possibly other parts of Ukraine proper.

Russia was not threatened by Crimea or Ukraine with military force, or any force at all.

Russia is isolated in the world, as was evidenced by the latest vote in the UN where the vote condemning the invasion and forced vote was unanimous against Russia with China abstaining and Russia vetoing the resolution.

I could keep going on both of your examples, but I'm getting a headache and by fingers are starting to hurt.
 
Summerwind said:
It doesn't, it just makes anyone who gets their panties in a wad about it a hypocrite. Unless of course you show exactly the same disgust for the USA. Which iirc you don't.
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I just said the US invaded Iraq illegally, I am very disgusted by that war and I think its one of the most shameful and misguided events in American history. I'm not a hypocrite about this.

austrianecon said:
He fled the country cause they impeached him illegally!!!!!!!! He was seeking help from Russia. Just like Arseniy Yatsenyuk left on a EU and US tour to drum up support.
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He fled the country because he was killing his people in the streets and knew his time was done. What the **** do you want to bring this guy back, this guy who bankrupted his country, stole 70 billion dollars of tax payer dollars to enrich his own bank account because the lines of impeachment weren't exactly followed? DO you think that's what's best for Ukraine? Hand the country over to a thief? That's ****ing stupid.
 
APACHERAT said:
Just saying that if the Russian troops were already legally with in the Ukraine, it wasn't an invasion.

There's a Luftwaffe fighter squadron based in New Mexico. If they decided to bomb Santa Fe, New Mexico it wouldn't be an invasion since German fighter pilots have been based in the USA for decades now.

I have to say it's kind of strange seeing jet fighters flying over America with the black maltese cross on their fuselage and wings.
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If the troops at that base came out and took over the local town, even without firing a single shot, it's still and invasion.

And yeah, I've served with former Soviet Block military in UN missions. At first, it was like "sleeping with the enemy." None of us liked it at first, then we became good friends. The Romanians especially.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Not even close to the same.

In Afghanistan:

We were attacked by al Qaeda which was based there and supported by the government (Taliban). No one in Crimea or Ukraine proper attacked Russia.

We are not going to annex Afghanistan. Russia is annexing Crimea.

The Afghanistan government is not by any stretch of the imagination a US puppet government. The Crimean government is a Russian puppet installed by the Russians without an election.

In Iraq:

The world (UN) had imposed sanctions on Iraq that included the authorization that military force be used to enforce a no-fly zone.

For years, Iraq shot at our military aircraft, which is an act of war.

Most countries in the world (the ones that have a robust foreign intelligence system, Britain, Germany, France and others) stated that Iraq had WMD's and would use them (hell even Saddam thought he still had them). Not just the US or Bush as the far left in the US likes to state.

Saddam used WMD's against our troops in the first Gulf War and on his own people.

After multiple attacks by Iraq against coalition military aircraft, the attacks we underwent in 9/11 and the overwhelming intelligence reports from multiple countries that WMD's still existed and that Saddam could sell them to al Qaeda or use them himself, the US with other countries took action.

We left Iraq and have not annexed any territory gained in battle since the Spanish-American War.

Russia is annexing Crimea, and possibly other parts of Ukraine proper.

Russia was not threatened by Crimea or Ukraine with military force, or any force at all.

Russia is isolated in the world, as was evidenced by the latest vote in the UN where the vote condemning the invasion and forced vote was unanimous against Russia with China abstaining and Russia vetoing the resolution.

I could keep going on both of your examples, but I'm getting a headache and by fingers are starting to hurt.
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I'm not even going to read past your first ignorant statement. We invade a country and you think we shouldn't be attacked by those that live there? Wow.
 
And from CNN:

A CNN team photographed one voter dropping two pieces of paper into the ballot box, raising questions over how effectively the vote is being monitored.

Ukraine crisis: Early results show Crimea votes to join Russia - CNN.com

The extent of such possible irregularities is not known. Nevertheless, this report indicates that at least some irregularities occurred.
 
MildSteel said:
At what point will you provide evidence of this so called "invasion." There is no evidence. The only thing I have heard here is that there are Russian troops in Crimea. That is not evidence of an invasion. Like I said, there are US troops in Colombia.
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For Christs sake... We aren't in control of Columbia or Germany or Japan or Britain or Greenland or anywhere else we have troops. Russia moved additional troops, armor and equipment into Crimea and Ukraine proper. They mined the border between Ukraine proper and Crimea. They sank derelict vessels at the mouth of the harbors to prevent the Ukrainian navy from moving out of port. They took over Ukraine military bases in Crimea... UKRAINE MILITARY BASES, not Russian military bases.

The US hasn't taken over the Colombian military bases or blocked their navy or mined the borders.
 
Beaudreaux said:
For Christs sake... We aren't in control of Columbia or Germany or Japan or Britain or Greenland or anywhere else we have troops. Russia moved additional troops, armor and equipment into Crimea and Ukraine proper. They mined the border between Ukraine proper and Crimea. They sank derelict vessels at the mouth of the harbors to prevent the Ukrainian navy from moving out of port. They took over Ukraine military bases in Crimea... UKRAINE MILITARY BASES, not Russian military bases.

The US hasn't taken over the Colombian military bases or blocked their navy or mined the borders.
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ukraine leased bases to russia, mainly the naval base of sevastapol.
 
Summerwind said:
Crimea didn't fight to get away from Russia. They were a gift to the Ukraine from Russia after the collapse of USSR, iirc. No war, none of what you're saying.
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*kicks a can*
:)
 
Wiseone said:
Russian invades the Crimea, occupies the
Parliament building with its Soldiers, uses that Parliament building to issue a decree through a new Prime Minister of Ukraine, a man who's "Russian Unity" party was founded only in 2008 and only won THREE out of one hundred seats in 2010, a man who runs an organized crime syndicate in Crimea, to hold a referendum in 10 days time which will be established and run by the Russian military.

That is democracy? Its ****ing sickening what people find acceptable, especially considering all the pissing and moaning that goes on about how Obama is a "dictator" when an actual dictator comes up on the radar its met with a resounding apathy or quite approval.

This is not democracy, this is not an election, its a obvious move by Russia to give a thin veil of legitimacy to what is nothing more than a military conquest of another nation's territory.
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I dont think any reasonable individual would consider this referendum to be anything but the farce that it is.

It makes me wonder why Putin even bothered.
 
Summerwind said:
But then why have a problem with Crimea in a completely non-violent way choosing their own futures? Would you be more in favor of Crimea joining Russia if they'd staged huge protests against Ukraine? How bizarre.
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You have a point, that makes my point. For the same reason I would have a problem with Mexico taking over southern California or annexing Brownsville, Texas or so on. For the same reason I would have a problem if the majority Hispanic population of those US areas if they tried to succeed from the US and join Mexico, or Venezuela or anyone else.

I understand your thoughts though.

It isn't their country, not Russia.
 
As the Ukrainian government was usurped through a coup, it's open season, everything is fair game.. Good on Russia...
 
Summerwind said:
I'm not even going to read past your first ignorant statement. We invade a country and you think we shouldn't be attacked by those that live there? Wow.
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That's not what I said or what I meant. Maybe I didn't understand your question, or you asked a question that didn't reflect your thoughts?
 
Wiseone said:
It doesn't matter if its in the past, HOW THE **** ARE THEY RELATED. How the **** does one country doing something wrong, whether today, or yesterday, or 5 years or 100 years ago give another country the right to do something wrong as well?

The US illegally invaded Iraq, how the **** does that give Russia the right to illegal invade the Crimea?
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The USA didn't illegally invade Iraq. Technically under international law the U.S. and UK were still at war with Iraq. Iraq didn't surrender during the first Gulf War under the G.H. Bush administration, only a cease fire agreement was signed.

Every time Saddam Husein ordered his military to violate that cease fire agreement by trying to shoot down U.S. and UK aircraft that were enforcing the no fly zone, it was an act of war against the USA and the UK.

Now if the 1998 "Iraq Liberation Act" passed by the Democrats controlled Congress and signed into law by President Clinton who called for regime change in Iraq and so did Hillary was legal or not ??? G.W. Bush just enforced the law of the land passed by Democrats and signed into law by Clinton, regime change in Iraq.
 
Fenton said:
I dont think any reasonable individual would consider this referendum to be anything but the farce that it is.

It makes me wonder why Putin even bothered.
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Because lots of people, like you can see here, will believe that its legit and it gives other folks who want to support Russia but need a reason to something to stand on. For example even the Chinese could use this referendum lots of ways if they wanted to take a stance, they could recognize it as legitimate or they could use it as a reason to stand against the west but not exactly stand with Russia either by bringing up concerns but recognizing the intent. This could apply to any nation still on the fence, plus it gives the Russians a propaganda tool for the Crimean people themselves, it hardens the support of supporters of Russian unity who now can believe they've legitimized their opinion and it gives Crimean still on the fence a reason to come over if they accept the referendum in their minds.

In the end for Russia its better to have a bull**** validation of their actions than no validation at all.
 
Wiseone said:
He fled the country because he was killing his people in the streets and knew his time was done. What the **** do you want to bring this guy back, this guy who bankrupted his country, stole 70 billion dollars of tax payer dollars to enrich his own bank account because the lines of impeachment weren't exactly followed? DO you think that's what's best for Ukraine? Hand the country over to a thief? That's ****ing stupid.
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So did Ukraine do the legal thing and remove him correctly? No! So rest is just bluster. If you are all for doing the right thing the right way.. you start there first.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
ukraine leased bases to russia, mainly the naval base of sevastapol.
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I know, that was part of my point. The US leases land from multiple countries around the world as well. Are you saying that gives them the right to move out of those bases and take over the local towns and countryside?
 
Wiseone said:
Because lots of people, like you can see here, will believe that its legit and it gives other folks who want to support Russia but need a reason to something to stand on. For example even the Chinese could use this referendum lots of ways if they wanted to take a stance, they could recognize it as legitimate or they could use it as a reason to stand against the west but not exactly stand with Russia either by bringing up concerns but recognizing the intent. This could apply to any nation still on the fence, plus it gives the Russians a propaganda tool for the Crimean people themselves, it hardens the support of supporters of Russian unity who now can believe they've legitimized their opinion and it gives Crimean still on the fence a reason to come over if they accept the referendum in their minds.

In the end for Russia its better to have a bull**** validation of their actions than no validation at all.
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as long as no one is stupid enough to open fire on the russians, the russians cannot justify any further expansion.
 
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