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Thread: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    If you don't like puppet government, how about a government under strong US influence.
    Uhhh...maybe? Do you think every pair of friendly countries with power imbalances constitutes a puppet and a master? I mean is South Korea a puppet state of the US? Is Singapore a puppet state of China?

    Influence doesn't equal puppetry.
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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Self-determination has usually been applied to colonies and sovereign nations, not to an integral part of a country that happens to have a different ethnic constituency. That's what territorial integrity is for.
    Self determination was applied to Kosovo territorial integrity non-withstanding.

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Uhhh...maybe? Do you think every pair of friendly countries with power imbalances constitutes a puppet and a master? I mean is South Korea a puppet state of the US? Is Singapore a puppet state of China?

    Influence doesn't equal puppetry.
    It's a puppet government. When the influence of the US is so strong that it can dictate a list of demands to a head of government, and the government must, and does obey, then it's a puppet government. Like I said puppets do what is demanded of them by the people that pull the strings.

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    It's a puppet government. When the influence of the US is so strong that it can dictate a list of demands to a head of government, and the government must, and does obey, then it's a puppet government. Like I said puppets do what is demanded of them by the people that pull the strings.
    Then there's dozens of puppet governments for all kinds of nations the world over. Not really the standard definition- and certainly not mine- but however you want to define it.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Then there's dozens of puppet governments for all kinds of nations the world over. Not really the standard definition- and certainly not mine- but however you want to define it.
    Like I said, puppets do as they are demanded by people that pull the strings.

    It's said Nuland's guy tralied both Klitschko and Tyahnybok. It's doubtful he could have been elected democratically. He's even said he's going to be unpopular.

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Like I said, puppets do as they are demanded by people that pull the strings.
    ...Okay? And kites fly in the wind. That doesn't mean a plane is a kite.

    It's said Nuland's guy tralied both Klitschko and Tyahnybok. It's doubtful he could have been elected democratically. He's even said he's going to be unpopular.
    Okay, that's not really a puppet government.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    ...Okay? And kites fly in the wind. That doesn't mean a plane is a kite.
    Planes and kites both fly due to the presence of air pressure gradients. However airplanes have specific wing designs and mechanisms for generating thrust that render them capable of sustained flight, whereas kites do not. In this way they are differentiated and we therefore do not call a plane a kite. However in a certain sense, a plane is a rather sophisticated type of kite, and someone who understands the physics of the matter would understand that, if the context was made clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Okay, that's not really a puppet government.
    Again puppets do as they are demanded by the persons who pull the strings. It is therefore a puppet government.

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Self determination was applied to Kosovo territorial integrity non-withstanding.
    Belgrade was attempting to deport or exterminate the majority of Kosovo's population, just as they had already tried to do in Bosnia and Croatia. Territorial integrity means little when the ruling regime is ethnically cleansing various local populations until they submit.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Belgrade was attempting to deport or exterminate the majority of Kosovo's population, just as they had already tried to do in Bosnia and Croatia. Territorial integrity means little when the ruling regime is ethnically cleansing various local populations until they submit.
    I understand what you are saying. The point is that this principle of self determination is rather charged.

    Here's Robert Lansing

    The more I think about the President's declaration as to the right of `self-determination', the more convinced I am of the danger of putting such ideas into the minds of certain races. It is bound to be the basis of impossible demands on the Peace Congress, and create trouble in many lands . . . . The phrase is simply loaded with dynamite. It will raise hopes which can never be realized. It will, I fear, cost thousands of lives. In the end it is bound to be discredited, to be called the dream of an idealist who failed to realize the danger until too late to check those who attempt to put the principle into force. What a calamity that the phrase was ever uttered! What misery it will cause! Think of the feelings of the author when he counts the dead who dies because he coined a phrase! A man, who is a leader of public thought, should beware of intemperate or undigested declarations. He is responsible for the consequences.

    -Robert Lansing, Wilson's Secretary of State, 1918-12-30

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    Re: Crimea votes to join Russia[W:223]

    So in the 21st century, who is in the running for the Hitler award besides all the misstatements by USA billionaires? With his ongoing ethnic cleansing of Tatars from Crimea, purging of LGBTs and prosecution of media thought, who could argue with Putie ?
    Physics is Phun

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