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Thread: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

  1. #71
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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I've never understood this: this is like saying a Bears fan is a hypocrite for liking touchdowns when the Bears score them, but disliking touchdowns when the Packers score them. "Do you like touchdowns or not?!" No, dude, it's not like that: the US is just looking for any argument to further US interests. Every nation is exactly the same in that regard. What is funny, though, is when individual people, not working for an organization, put forth the same type of argument. When country X attacks? Country X is wrong. When country X is attacked? Country X is still wrong, they goaded it somehow. These people aren't even working towards a national interest, so what's their goal?
    I have NO doubt there is a rather long list of things you don't understand so I'll do my best to explain where your faulty observations lead you down false argument trails.

    I NEVER said I like what the Russians are doing

    I AM saying we shouldn't act all shocked and outraged that 'decent' nations don't act in this way when we have a LONG list of just such actions.

    Russian national interest is VERY clear-

    Crimea was never part of the Ukraine until arbitrarily attached in the mid 1950's by a defunct organization. It has been 'Russian' since the 1783. The Ukraine on the other hand was still being kicked around like a football between various nations.

    Crimea has very important military facilities- we still hold Gitmo for whatever silly reason past a poke in Fidel's eye. We hung onto Subic bay long past any military need- and lets NOT consider the dozens of bases in Japan and other places that serve little if any real purpose other than to tie up personnel and drain the treasury. But the Crimean bases ARE important and serve a true purpose.

    Crimea is 58% Russian, 24% Ukrainian- over here that would be a landslide vote

    Now what the USofA is doing is attempting to continue a flawed policy of close containment- it doesn't serve US interests to push a confrontation on Russia's border, the Cuban Missile Crisis should have been a cautionary tale. The Ukraine has far more benefited from a close association with Russia than with the West. It had a President theif who was leaning Russian and now they want a President thug leaning to the West- but unless the West is willing to pay Russia to keep the natural gas flowing to the Ukrainians it makes little sense to 'break away'.

    Is it in the USofA's interest to put our money into Russian thug pockets OR have the Russian thugs short change their profits to keep the Ukraine in their sphere of influence? What possible gain does the USofA get from the Ukraine?

    THAT is the issue, not who likes touchdowns....

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    I have NO doubt there is a rather long list of things you don't understand so I'll do my best to explain where your faulty observations lead you down false argument trails.
    lol are we going to be rude? Fun, I like that better.

    I NEVER said I like what the Russians are doing
    No one ever said or implied you did. What a horribly "faulty observation", that led you down a "false argument trail". Weird that you even came to that, but try to focus, I don't have time to be a teacher.

    I AM saying we shouldn't act all shocked and outraged that 'decent' nations don't act in this way when we have a LONG list of just such actions.
    Who the **** is "we"? Are you talking about Americans or the American government. Please define your terms, otherwise you're wasting everyone's time.

    Russian national interest is VERY clear-
    Is it? That's impressive that you're so able to readily define national interests, usually that's, ya know, a full time job.

    Crimea was never part of the Ukraine until arbitrarily attached in the mid 1950's by a defunct organization. It has been 'Russian' since the 1783. The Ukraine on the other hand was still being kicked around like a football between various nations.
    Why are you telling me this? Do you think I didn't know? Do you think it has anything to do with what I said?

    Crimea has very important military facilities- we still hold Gitmo for whatever silly reason past a poke in Fidel's eye. We hung onto Subic bay long past any military need- and lets NOT consider the dozens of bases in Japan and other places that serve little if any real purpose other than to tie up personnel and drain the treasury. But the Crimean bases ARE important and serve a true purpose.

    Crimea is 58% Russian, 24% Ukrainian- over here that would be a landslide vote
    ...what is this? Why did you just tell me something I've known for years? What does this have to do with what I said? Can you focus?

    Now what the USofA is doing is attempting to continue a flawed policy of close containment- it doesn't serve US interests to push a confrontation on Russia's border, the Cuban Missile Crisis should have been a cautionary tale. The Ukraine has far more benefited from a close association with Russia than with the West. It had a President theif who was leaning Russian and now they want a President thug leaning to the West- but unless the West is willing to pay Russia to keep the natural gas flowing to the Ukrainians it makes little sense to 'break away'.
    What on earth does this have to do with what I said? I don't understand how people who think they're intelligent can pretend that they don't understand a nation acting in its self-interest. It's in the US' self-interest to support when the US does an action and vilify when a country the US doesn't like does the very same action. Because the US- like any other nation- acts in its self-interest. Not according to some objective rules about what's right or not. What's "right" to any given nation is what supports its self-interest.

    Is it in the USofA's interest to put our money into Russian thug pockets OR have the Russian thugs short change their profits to keep the Ukraine in their sphere of influence? What possible gain does the USofA get from the Ukraine?
    Stop talking about this to me. It's not the subject of what I posted. The subject is how you seem to not understand that the US will support things you don't like if it furthers US interests. It will oppose the same thing if it is against US interests. You apparently don't get that, since you mentioned the things you did. You don't understand it.

    THAT is the issue, not who likes touchdowns....
    I really don't think you even understand what I was saying. Clearly. No one asked for a history lesson on Ukraine. You didn't tell me anything I didn't know. Not sure why you told me- did you just want to type something this morning? Focus or stop replying.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Continue to believe your nonsense if you must but Putin has annexed Crimea with the use/threat of force. There is no excuse for that and your attempts to legitimize his actions by comparing them to the USA do not aid your cause.
    I don't know at this point if Putin has done any wrong, or intends to. But he's acting in his own interests, as the US does. And when the US does, its rationalised, justified, and perfectly acceptable, by most. What's different here?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I don't know at this point if Putin has done any wrong, or intends to. But he's acting in his own interests, as the US does. And when the US does, its rationalised, justified, and perfectly acceptable, by most. What's different here?
    Seriously he invades another country usding troops without any insignia, denies the invasion for days all without even an attempt of giving any just cause and you dont think hes done anything wrong?
    Be a Putin apologist all you want but that is seriously so 1984 doubletalk it would make Mr. Wells blush.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Technically speaking, for him to "win" the domestic PR fight, all he has to do is stay in Crimea till the referendum and then act according to the wishes of the people in Crimea counterbalanced with what the Russians in Russia want.

    If he does move into eastern ukraine however... then yes, he'll lose everything. He'll lose the trade agreements with the EU and the USA and that's over 10% of the Russian economy. There is no way he can get that money from elsewhere, not even trading with China. Losing that = recession or even a depression = mass unemployment = mass protests = bye bye 2nd term... his only chance is to have 140% of the population come out to vote again... but he'll have to become RasPutin to do that.

    Stay in Crimea... then leave Ukraine alone and then make amends to the keyholders of his economic wellbeing. But again, I can only speak from the perspective of a reasonable person. I don't think putin thinks like you and I would in terms of what's reasonable. Or maybe he does. Idk.
    EU loses Russia oil and gas.. EU has more to lose then Putin.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quag View Post
    Seriously he invades another country usding troops without any insignia, denies the invasion for days all without even an attempt of giving any just cause and you dont think hes done anything wrong?
    Be a Putin apologist all you want but that is seriously so 1984 doubletalk it would make Mr. Wells blush.
    He's done nothing more than the US does, and enjoys plenty of apologists. One difference, when the US invades, there's plenty of bodies and debris. And Putin is the responder, not the aggressor. Why is it perfectly ok for the US to act in its interests, and not for Russia to do the same??
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    He's done nothing more than the US does, and enjoys plenty of apologists.
    So why do you defend one but not the other?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    He's done nothing more than the US does, and enjoys plenty of apologists. One difference, when the US invades, there's plenty of bodies and debris. And Putin is the responder, not the aggressor. Why is it perfectly ok for the US to act in its interests, and not for Russia to do the same??
    The US has invaded a country with soldiers that have their insignia removed and then denied that invasion for days untill they have a good strong foothold and have put a puppet into power who will hold a referendum to annex part of the country?
    Really when did this happen?
    You keep trying to make this about the USA, it isnt, it is about Putin invading another country.
    We get it you are a Putin apologist and will claim he is lilly white no matter what he does.
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    EU loses Russia oil and gas.. EU has more to lose then Putin.
    You don't get it do you.

    Russia doesn't have a choice.

    The mere idea that the EU may impose sanctions on the EU has caused the russian stock market to crumble and the ruble is now lowest it ever was in 10 years. Russia cannot survive a trade war with Europe and Europe can survive just fine.

    The whole "but oil and gas" is a fallacy argument at this point. The euro is still going strong and hasn't budged an inch while the economy of Russia is in free fall. As I said above, the EU has options, tons of options, in terms of trade partners and from whom to import gas and oil. There are dozens of countries that would kill to get in and take 200bil $ from the EU in trade. For that much money, there is always someone who is going to come up with a solution.

    So no. Reality has proven that the EU has very little to lose... and Russia is losing everything right now.

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    Re: If Crimea says 'Da!,' what's next?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    So why do you defend one but not the other?
    Because in this particular case, Russia's defense of their interests is in response to the violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government destabilising a country on their border. I disagree that this is an act of aggression as Western media depicts. Particularly sense there was Western intervention that spurred the protests to begin with. Even Kissinger which I hate to quote, said that the demonisation of Putin as Hitler is an alibi for no policy. And most obviously, Putin didn't come in guns and bombs ablaze killing people and destroying property, it is a security measure.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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