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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

  1. #911
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    1.)hehe, you can't argue outside the superficial can you? You are mentally incapable of making an actual argument not predicated on some antiquated preference of women over men in society. You might as well just saved us all some time and said I believe just because..

    2.)You haven't told us why my or others arguments are not valid or have no merit only that because the law says it is so it must be true.
    3.)You have avoided my arguments altogether disregarding them with the same perfunctoriness as the majority of posters on this thread.
    4.) When challenged on why a man doe snot have pre-birth rights you again turn to the law as incontrovertable proof of your position.
    5.)I said it before, it's weak, and superficial.
    6.) You have been unable this far as to answer my one basic most simple question.
    7.) What material harm is there in allowing this man to witness the birth of his child?
    1.) oh look instead of anything with merit, failed insults and deflections nothing new here
    2.) this has been down already by me and many others
    3.) you havent presented any REAL arguments. Telling us that you think 2+2=5 because you FEEL like it doesn is meaningless and not a real argument. The issue is the majority simply understand reality, facts, rights and rational/logical arguments.
    4.) Never said he doesnt have pre-birth rights or shouldn't, FAIL. I have actually discussed that different topic in length in threads that dealt with it. Please try not to make stuff up it only makes your posts fail worse.
    5.) yes when you make stuff up it is
    6.) more meaningless opinion and dishonesty that nobody educated honest and objective buys lol maybe ask me those great questions that failed again like "Is he or is he not the father" lol Those were complete failures too.
    7.) this is what you dont get, there doesnt HAVE to eb harm, nor does your OPINION of what harm is have to be met LMAO. Its meaningless.
    But if you need a MEANINGLESS answer to a MEANINGLESS question you can find lots of MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC info on the mental state, comfort level and stress free environment having an impact.

    but again, none of that matters to reality that its her rights that are being protected and the man has ZERO right to infringe on them.

    Her rights and the law exists already, come up with ONE sound argument to violate her rights and people will take it seriously
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  2. #912
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) in this case it factually does not. Theres no rights being denied to the man.

    Correction, there are no established rights being denied. That's kind of the whole point of this discussion, AGENTJ.


    2.) your opinion on why doesnt matter and even if true it doesnt matter because why? . . . . . its still her right
    So even if true, it doesn't matter? Does everyone see what I'm working with here?



    she could come out and say i dont want him in there because he is a poopie head and im doing this to hurt his feelings.
    doesnt matter
    But do you agree that it the reason to exclude someone should contain a better reason than that? Should it be as easy as you're a poopie head to deny a man the right to establish a right to be there?


    would my personal OPINION< think thats ****ty and severely ****ed up? yes
    would my personal OPINION, think thats ignorant? yes
    Hurray.. We're breaking through.


    but my opinions and feelings, just like yours, dont matter to her rights. THey are meaningless. SOrry that fact bothers you.
    My God, AGENTJ, you have to get over this idea that a judges feelings and opinions are superior to your own well reasoned one's. To not question the things that you find unpalatable is doing yourself and your society a disservice.


    3.) more opinions that dont matter
    Apparently the judges opinion matters to you, and apparently only hers does.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  3. #913
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) oh look instead of anything with merit, failed insults and deflections nothing new here
    2.) this has been down already by me and many others
    3.) you havent presented any REAL arguments. Telling us that you think 2+2=5 because you FEEL like it doesn is meaningless and not a real argument. The issue is the majority simply understand reality, facts, rights and rational/logical arguments.
    4.) Never said he doesnt have pre-birth rights or shouldn't, FAIL. I have actually discussed that different topic in length in threads that dealt with it. Please try not to make stuff up it only makes your posts fail worse.
    5.) yes when you make stuff up it is
    6.) more meaningless opinion and dishonesty that nobody educated honest and objective buys lol maybe ask me those great questions that failed again like "Is he or is he not the father" lol Those were complete failures too.
    7.) this is what you dont get, there doesnt HAVE to eb harm, nor does your OPINION of what harm is have to be met LMAO. Its meaningless.
    But if you need a MEANINGLESS answer to a MEANINGLESS question you can find lots of MEDICAL and SCIENTIFIC info on the mental state, comfort level and stress free environment having an impact.

    but again, none of that matters to reality that its her rights that are being protected and the man has ZERO right to infringe on them.

    Her rights and the law exists already, come up with ONE sound argument to violate her rights and people will take it seriously

    My God, why do I keep trying with you? I don't even know how to begin to answer this drivel?

    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

  4. #914
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    How is the presence of the man that bore her the seed any more or less uncomfortable than the presence of strangers? By the way, there is nothing relaxing about labor, even if you have an epidural, it's intense.
    If they had a bad relationship, or even strongly dislike one another, it could cause her quite a bit of stress.

    Hell, man. There are plenty of guys out there who can't even relax enough to piss if there's someone they're uncomfortable with standing near-by.

    It's basically the same principle here. The situation simply happens to be roughly 1000x worse, and carries the potential for traumatic injury and possibly even death for at least two different people if things go wrong.

    Besides, doctors and women themselves say that greater (if, as you pointed out, not necessarily absolute) levels of relaxation make deliveries easier. I don't see any particular reason to doubt their word on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Oh just as a funny aside, trust me bro. Even if Mom and Pop are on great terms, she not liking him very much during child birth. Both of my children's Mom's called me all kinds of things during labor.


    Tim-
    Oh, I'm sure that happens too.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 03-18-14 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #915
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    That's a reasonable position on the issue, as I've already conceded. My issue as a father who witnessed, and in every possible psychological way, even physical (Had some of the same pregnancy patterns as my wife) experienced all of her pregnancies almost exactly the way she did, less the pain at the end. Our last three children were born cesarean, and with my daughters C-section she was in labor for 56 hours before the damn teaching hospital decided it was time to pull her out via surgery. At first they said I could not go in the operating room, even though my wife would be unconscious, I told them that there is no way in hell I would not be there for the birth of my daughter (we did know her sex at the time) but more importantly I told them my wife and my daughter needed an advocate in case important decisions needed to be made about either health and well being. In short, I can be very convincing. They let me in, and my daughter was born into the nicu extremely stressed birth, and although he apgar scores were low at birth, two days later she got normal scores. She had wires coming from everywhere but she was beautiful and our miracle. I would have been forever changed if I was not able to be there for that. I would have blamed myself till death that I was not there for my child in a time of extreme need. Even though everything turned out, I can't help but feel as though my calmness through it all helped the situation for everyone, including some of these attending doctors who were all frazzled. Everyone was frazzled, and it seemed as though I was the only one thinking clearly. her Mom was a mess, Dad was losing his mind, but ole Tim was calm as a cucumber, why? Because I knew I had to be clear headed in case something went horribly wrong. I knew I needed to be rationale at a time when most would be in a panic.

    For some here being a Dad might not seem like a big deal, but it has always been a big deal for me. I always knew even as a young teenager that I would be a Dad. It was important to me, and all of our children were planned. If my wife at the time didn't want me in the delivery room (would never happen but if) I would have strongly insisted on being there. If we somehow broke up and still insisted on me not being there I can see a scenario where I might find myself in the position of the Father in the OP. I would have insisted using whatever means were at my disposal because that's how important it was for me. You and others are acting like men are no big deal, that we are less important to the mother, and I contend that I was the rock for all my children's births, and if not there, and not actively involved through it all, including birth, things might have turned out far different than they did. All of my children are blessed {*not that I'm religious) with seemingly healthy furtures and they're all smart, so me and my wive(s) {ex included}are also blessed to have such healthy and happy kids.

    I think my story, and perhaps the story of many loving Fathers is a moral case that trumps selfish behavior from a bitter ex girlfriend or whatever. I asked a very specific question with regard to harm, real material harm that allowing a concerned and loving father into a birthing room would have on this Mother. I understand the hypothetical discomfort of having him there, but is there any REAL harm in having him there?


    Tim-
    I do not act like men are no big deal, but in the whole delivery game the man is nothing more (in all reality) an extra/bit part actor who could if needed be replaced with no great difficulty. I am sorry but that is a fact. The only person who really has to be in the delivery room in that regard is the mother. She is the one who is giving birth and it is her peace of mind, physical health, mental health and wellbeing I think should have the most consideration in cases like this. Her health and her baby's health and wellbeing are way more important than a man's hurt feelings about not being able to witness the birth.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  6. #916
    I'm kind of a big deal

    AGENT J's Avatar
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    1.)Correction, there are no established rights being denied.
    2.) That's kind of the whole point of this discussion, AGENTJ.
    3.)So even if true, it doesn't matter?
    4.) Does everyone see what I'm working with here?
    5.)But do you agree that it the reason to exclude someone should contain a better reason than that? Should it be as easy as you're a poopie head to deny a man the right to establish a right to be there?
    6.)Hurray.. We're breaking through.
    7.)My God, AGENTJ, you have to get over this idea that a judges feelings and opinions are superior to your own well reasoned one's.
    8.) To not question the things that you find unpalatable is doing yourself and your society a disservice.




    Apparently the judges opinion matters to you, and apparently only hers does.


    Tim-
    1.) thats not a "corrections since i didn't add the qualifiers you made up lol
    my statement stands there are no rights being denied to the man in this case
    2.) thats what you want it to be about yes
    3.) yes, even if true it has zero impact on her rights
    4.) yes they do, they see facts are defeating you. Feelings dont matter to rights, thats what i said and thats true.
    5.) in law? no
    in tact? yes thats my meaningless opinion
    6.) nope changes nothing
    7.) dont have the opinion so you r post fails again. Do you ever stop making stuff up?
    8.) glad i dont do that so im good.

    what your issue is is that you want me to agree with YOU and i don not lol
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  7. #917
    I'm kind of a big deal

    AGENT J's Avatar
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    My God, why do I keep trying with you? I don't even know how to begin to answer this drivel?

    Tim-
    no surprise here. Logic, reality, facts, laws and rights are going to always be a problem for your posts if you rely on feelings. Now if you have a logical, sound reason to violate the women's rights present it.
    This space is currently owned by The Great Winchester, stay tuned for future messages!
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  8. #918
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    Scrabaholic's Avatar
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    I'd rather go through 18 hours of pain than 18 years of wallet-rape.
    Oh please. You probably couldn't handle the pain a woman goes through in childbirth. Men who have had labour simulators on them have caved quite quickly.

  9. #919
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabaholic View Post
    Oh please. You probably couldn't handle the pain a woman goes through in childbirth. Men who have had labour simulators on them have caved quite quickly.
    When you have to deal with something you HAVE to handle it. Women don't have to handle it since they have pain meds.

    How would a simulator for labor be accurate when put on a man anyway? Don't answer that.

  10. #920
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    so you have no defense for the failed statement you posted? got it thats what we thought

    .... even more irony,


    I call logical fallacy. You failed to make a logical statement.

    Example -"Have you stopped beating your wife?"



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