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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Like most "reality" T.V., I'm sure it's mostly staged.

    I don't buy for a single second that they could make it like that without some kind of outside support.
    as long as you can get water, 21 days isn't that bad. and, maybe it's in the rules but I notice that they always hang around near where they get dropped off and then wait until day 19 or 20 to start heading to the extraction point. would make much more sense to get as close to the extraction point as possible early on while you are still fresh. instead of having to walk 5-10 miles on day 18 after surviving on rain water and bugs for nearly 3 weeks.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Irony
    so you have no defense for the failed statement you posted? got it thats what we thought
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  3. #893
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Your question is:



    Yes, both have a right to privacy but the woman does not want to encroach on the man's fundamental rights on privacy. There is no evidence that the woman has any desire or plans to deny the man the right to claim parentage with all the obligations and rights accordingly.

    The woman does not want to trump any of his fundamental rights at all, it is completely the other way around. He will become father no matter what, it does not matter if he is floating in space or downtown when the woman delivers this baby, he has gone from someone with little or no rights to someone with a lot of potential rights. There is no trumping rights in this lawsuit. His rights are non-existent as to being inside the delivery room at the moment of birth. There is no legal right and IMHO no moral right in the case of parents who have split up and who are estranged from one another. In an ideal world I would love for him to be able to support the mother of his child while she delivers the baby and see him come into this world. However, this is not an ideal world for those 2 parents. She does not want him for support and does not need him for support. His presence would be purely as spectator and that is just not a good enough reason for him to be there. It is not a legal requirement to allow her to have him be there as a spectator, there is no legal grounds for him to demands that, in my point of view there is also no moral right for him to demand this.

    Now if it was a case in which there was a legal basis for his demand to be present at the moment of birth and I, as a make believe lay judge, would have to choose that the rights of the mother and child far outweigh/trump the hypothetical rights of a father to see his child born. The safety and comfort of mother and child during the birthing process deserve greater consideration than the fathers need to be a spectator at the moment of birth. That at least is my opinion.
    That's a reasonable position on the issue, as I've already conceded. My issue as a father who witnessed, and in every possible psychological way, even physical (Had some of the same pregnancy patterns as my wife) experienced all of her pregnancies almost exactly the way she did, less the pain at the end. Our last three children were born cesarean, and with my daughters C-section she was in labor for 56 hours before the damn teaching hospital decided it was time to pull her out via surgery. At first they said I could not go in the operating room, even though my wife would be unconscious, I told them that there is no way in hell I would not be there for the birth of my daughter (we did know her sex at the time) but more importantly I told them my wife and my daughter needed an advocate in case important decisions needed to be made about either health and well being. In short, I can be very convincing. They let me in, and my daughter was born into the nicu extremely stressed birth, and although he apgar scores were low at birth, two days later she got normal scores. She had wires coming from everywhere but she was beautiful and our miracle. I would have been forever changed if I was not able to be there for that. I would have blamed myself till death that I was not there for my child in a time of extreme need. Even though everything turned out, I can't help but feel as though my calmness through it all helped the situation for everyone, including some of these attending doctors who were all frazzled. Everyone was frazzled, and it seemed as though I was the only one thinking clearly. her Mom was a mess, Dad was losing his mind, but ole Tim was calm as a cucumber, why? Because I knew I had to be clear headed in case something went horribly wrong. I knew I needed to be rationale at a time when most would be in a panic.

    For some here being a Dad might not seem like a big deal, but it has always been a big deal for me. I always knew even as a young teenager that I would be a Dad. It was important to me, and all of our children were planned. If my wife at the time didn't want me in the delivery room (would never happen but if) I would have strongly insisted on being there. If we somehow broke up and still insisted on me not being there I can see a scenario where I might find myself in the position of the Father in the OP. I would have insisted using whatever means were at my disposal because that's how important it was for me. You and others are acting like men are no big deal, that we are less important to the mother, and I contend that I was the rock for all my children's births, and if not there, and not actively involved through it all, including birth, things might have turned out far different than they did. All of my children are blessed {*not that I'm religious) with seemingly healthy furtures and they're all smart, so me and my wive(s) {ex included}are also blessed to have such healthy and happy kids.

    I think my story, and perhaps the story of many loving Fathers is a moral case that trumps selfish behavior from a bitter ex girlfriend or whatever. I asked a very specific question with regard to harm, real material harm that allowing a concerned and loving father into a birthing room would have on this Mother. I understand the hypothetical discomfort of having him there, but is there any REAL harm in having him there?


    Tim-
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just as in consent given for sex in prior cases when it comes to rape, prior consent is not an automatic ticket to future consent when it comes to seeing someone naked.

    And it doesn't matter whether he would be thinking about her sexually or not. She has every right to maintain her privacy from people that are not necessary in the room, including the baby's father.

    All due respect but this line of reasoning fly's in the face of common sense. Everyone in the damn room would be a complete stranger to the Mother. Ex boyfriend and perhaps her Mom would be the exception. It's not about privacy Rogue, come on stop that silly crap. Yes I get that the laws says she has a right to privacy but you have to admit this is a ridiculous argument that somehow the ex is no longer allowed to see her naked but everyone else is.. LOL

    Tim-
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I understand the hypothetical discomfort of having him there, but is there any REAL harm in having him there?


    Tim-
    he might get to catch a glimpse of her hooha against her will......
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Not just the naked part, but the whole THING. A woman in labor is very vulnerable, frightened sometimes and in a LOT of pain and agony. I cannot imagine someone trying to "force" themselves upon me at the time. It just stinks! They guy who does this is a real selfish jerk. There is absolutely NO reason at all why he can't come to the hospital and see the baby AFTER it's born. There is no "right" to be in the delivery room unless you are the patient or doctor. Anyone else is an invitee and can be uninvited at ANY time because it is a medical procedure subject to HIPAA laws. The woman/mother is a patient and is most certainly entitled to her privacy.

    So being an advocate for his child is not a good enough reason? Is it immoral for this father to want to be there for his child's birth in case anything goes wrong? Is it immoral for this Father to want to be there for his child's birth even if everything goes right?

    I honestly do not understand this line of reasoning by some of you folks? She's not concerned about privacy. She's using it as an excuse to exclude this man form something that he obviously felt important enough to take her to court for - to secure his rights, and the rights of his child, or to at least bring attention to the moral question and make people stop thinking traditionally and think deeper about the situation. The unborn child to have his/her father present at birth seems reasonable. Unless of course you're suggesting that a child in the vaginal canal a second from birth has no rights at all, but one second away has all of a sudden attained them? No one is discussing that either. Why doesn't the child have rights? Shouldn't an unborn child have two advocates in the birthing room when possible? Mother got pregnant on purpose (Assuming it was on purpose), isn't that when and where her claim to have exclusive control of the future of that child end?


    Just some things to think about.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    he might get to catch a glimpse of her hooha against her will......
    You and I both know that this isn't about her privacy. She's punishing this man, and she's hiding behind weak laws with no moral justification in them, only the whims of judges and people who agree with them politically. I've been an advocate for changing the way we think about pregnancy and abortion and how women have all the power and authority, and I contend that in the absence of forced coercion or duress that a man and a woman should have exactly equal say in the future of their child, and that also means unborn humans. Mom wants an abortion, tough, prove there is a real material harm in having this child or suck it, and you're going to have to carry it to term and then give it to Dad who is willing to take it. Your right to decide the future of this child begin and end when you open your hole freely to let the sperm makes it's way down to your egg. Of course exceptions would need to be made, but death by pregnancy is so rare in Western civilization as to not even be a concern anymore. So what else ya got in order to want to terminate this pregnancy? Better be compelling though or you're going to have it whether you like it or not. That's the way I'd have it if it were up to me.





    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    You and I both know that this isn't about her privacy. She's punishing this man, and she's hiding behind weak laws with no moral justification in them, only the whims of judges and people who agree with them politically. I've been an advocate for changing the way we think about pregnancy and abortion and how women have all the power and authority, and I contend that in the absence of forced coercion or duress that a man and a woman should have exactly equal say in the future of their child, and that also means unborn humans. Mom wants an abortion, tough, prove there is a real material harm in having this child or suck it, and you're going to have to carry it to term and then give it to Dad who is willing to take it. Your right to decide the future of this child begin and end when you open your hole freely to let the sperm makes it's way down to your egg. Of course exceptions would need to be made, but death by pregnancy is so rare in Western civilization as to not even be a concern anymore. So what else ya got in order to want to terminate this pregnancy? Better be compelling though or you're going to have it whether you like it or not. That's the way I'd have it if it were up to me.



    Tim-
    what do you want to bet that if he had not wanted to be there, he'd have been castigated as a deadbeat piece of **** who doesn't care about his child? no win for the father.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    what do you want to bet that if he had not wanted to be there, he'd have been castigated as a deadbeat piece of **** who doesn't care about his child? no win for the father.
    Dude one thing I've come to learn about the family court system in the US is that the Father is nothing but a wallet, and barely any rights at all. Nothing short of catching a mother with a needle in her arm he has no real rights. Sure he has them in print, but rarely does he get to exercise them.


    Tim-
    “When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” - P. J. O’Rourke
    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just as in consent given for sex in prior cases when it comes to rape, prior consent is not an automatic ticket to future consent when it comes to seeing someone naked.

    And it doesn't matter whether he would be thinking about her sexually or not. She has every right to maintain her privacy from people that are not necessary in the room, including the baby's father.
    Correct, some people simply don't care about the others rights though, they want their feelings to trump them and thats not how it works. Its hilarious that the women's rights mean nothing to some they just want to violate them based on emotion.
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