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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Well, you still parroted exactly what the liberal said when he/she quoted my comment out of context. I guess you are just a "dittohead" then.
    If you would, please, have a look at my post #709, posted before the one I 'dittoed'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Btw I noticed that you edited your post with an explanation afterwards.
    Yes. We have 25 minutes to edit our posts. Please see my above edit. I suggest waiting at least that long before replying. It's not unheard of for a given member to post, go to another thread on a completely unrelated topic, post there, and come back for the first post with an edit of something to add, remove, to word differently. Perhaps your experience with forums differs from mine, but on this site our threads can last for thousands of posts over weeks. I know many forums have a faster pace. Please be aware of this deference.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    So what? It doesn't answer the question I posed. My question imparts philosophical implications; which is the basis of all law, and rationale. I acknowledged what the judge had ruled, but with the caveat that it was her opinion. That's why they call them rulings based on the courts opinion... get it now?
    Your question is:

    The deeper discussion point was when does a persons fundamental right trump another's? In this case both have a fundamental right to privacy. They both have a fundamental right to be a parent, free of interference from anyone less a clear and present material harm to the child. So, you're suggesting that he doesn't have a right to be a parent because you claim he is not necessarily the parent or would need to establish paternity.
    Yes, both have a right to privacy but the woman does not want to encroach on the man's fundamental rights on privacy. There is no evidence that the woman has any desire or plans to deny the man the right to claim parentage with all the obligations and rights accordingly.

    The woman does not want to trump any of his fundamental rights at all, it is completely the other way around. He will become father no matter what, it does not matter if he is floating in space or downtown when the woman delivers this baby, he has gone from someone with little or no rights to someone with a lot of potential rights. There is no trumping rights in this lawsuit. His rights are non-existent as to being inside the delivery room at the moment of birth. There is no legal right and IMHO no moral right in the case of parents who have split up and who are estranged from one another. In an ideal world I would love for him to be able to support the mother of his child while she delivers the baby and see him come into this world. However, this is not an ideal world for those 2 parents. She does not want him for support and does not need him for support. His presence would be purely as spectator and that is just not a good enough reason for him to be there. It is not a legal requirement to allow her to have him be there as a spectator, there is no legal grounds for him to demands that, in my point of view there is also no moral right for him to demand this.

    Now if it was a case in which there was a legal basis for his demand to be present at the moment of birth and I, as a make believe lay judge, would have to choose that the rights of the mother and child far outweigh/trump the hypothetical rights of a father to see his child born. The safety and comfort of mother and child during the birthing process deserve greater consideration than the fathers need to be a spectator at the moment of birth. That at least is my opinion.
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you would, please, have a look at my post #709, posted before the one I 'dittoed'.
    Okay, I went back and read your post #709 but I don't see your point? What does that have to with the other person's quote about a rapist having parental rights in response to my quote which he took out of context and then you parroted, and then added a challenge?

    When the other poster made the ridiculous remark about a rapist's parental rights because I used the term "any father" within a context which I was speaking about any father who is not an estranged ex fiance; meaning any father who would normally be in a delivery room; I called that post a typical liberal move; the post was ridiculous. Why you chose to use that same quote was baffling to me, but hey you are the one that did that. If it was your intention to dispute my position on a father's rights, I don't think that comment was in itself very useful. If you wanted me to respond to your position as stated pages back in post #709 was your intention, then you could have raised those points again to me and I would responded to them directly. But that is not what you did is it? The part about "get over it" and "life goes on" was also not exactly a debate point was it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Yes. We have 25 minutes to edit our posts. Please see my above edit. I suggest waiting at least that long before replying. It's not unheard of for a given member to post, go to another thread on a completely unrelated topic, post there, and come back for the first post with an edit of something to add, remove, to word differently. Perhaps your experience with forums differs from mine, but on this site our threads can last for thousands of posts over weeks. I know many forums have a faster pace. Please be aware of this deference.
    Well, I have a difference of opinion on waiting 25 minutes to respond. If something is said and it is taken a certain way, it doesn't take 25 minutes for the perceived intent of a comment to sink in. Usually in my experience the way something comes out the first time is the way the person intended it to be taken. In a debate people usually don't go back and say, "oh, what I said a half hour ago, I want to change" and expect to be taken seriously. Of course if that same person wishes to go back and correct something I suppose they are free to do so at any time.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    He has every right to demand this. Whether or not he is granted this right is another question, left to the courts. This time they say no… Will it always be that way?
    Exactly a point I made as well. I find it ironic that many from the same camp who will argue that this is justice because it is based on "what the courts says" seem to disregard the history of wrong decisions by our courts. Dred Scott, Native American re-locations, denial of votes to women, Japanese internment... the list goes on.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room - ABC News

    Thoughts?

    So the elements in question:
    1) Is being a witness to a birth essential to bond with said child?
    2) Is the birthing room a matter of the mother's personal privacy?

    Of course, this isn't a broad ruling that applies to everyone (every state, etc). Hospitals have their own rules and guidelines they follow - and so forth. States can rule to the contrary. If hospitals they want to change their guidelines they must make an effort to do so. Most err with the side of the mother (which is what led to this case).

    I support the ruling and the concept: Being a witness to a birth is not a right. It is a privilege that should be extended to fathers at the decision of the mother per her comfort.
    Before my kids were born it was made fairly evident that mother came first. She chose the maner of delivery (drugs or not, bathtub or not etc etc). She chose who was and wasn't in the room. Everything was about her. Even after the kids were born and we were still in the hospital everything was about the mother and baby. I was literally treated like a suspected pedophile. I could not even hold the baby unless my wife said it was ok to the nurse and had to get permission to sleep in a chair in the hospital room with my wife.
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    She was naked when she made the baby, she should be used to it by now. Besides, I've been in three delivery rooms and the last thing a woman is thinking about is her naked butt when she in that much pain.

    My wife could have been on the 50th yardline at the superbowl game giving birth and modesty would have been way down the list of her worries while pushing out a 9.5 lb baby.
    Just as in consent given for sex in prior cases when it comes to rape, prior consent is not an automatic ticket to future consent when it comes to seeing someone naked.

    And it doesn't matter whether he would be thinking about her sexually or not. She has every right to maintain her privacy from people that are not necessary in the room, including the baby's father.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just as in consent given for sex in prior cases when it comes to rape, prior consent is not an automatic ticket to future consent when it comes to seeing someone naked.

    And it doesn't matter whether he would be thinking about her sexually or not. She has every right to maintain her privacy from people that are not necessary in the room, including the baby's father.
    Not just the naked part, but the whole THING. A woman in labor is very vulnerable, frightened sometimes and in a LOT of pain and agony. I cannot imagine someone trying to "force" themselves upon me at the time. It just stinks! They guy who does this is a real selfish jerk. There is absolutely NO reason at all why he can't come to the hospital and see the baby AFTER it's born. There is no "right" to be in the delivery room unless you are the patient or doctor. Anyone else is an invitee and can be uninvited at ANY time because it is a medical procedure subject to HIPAA laws. The woman/mother is a patient and is most certainly entitled to her privacy.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabaholic View Post
    This says a lot more about you than it does about her.....
    wah.......
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Del Zeppnile View Post
    Exactly a point I made as well. I find it ironic that many from the same camp who will argue that this is justice because it is based on "what the courts says" seem to disregard the history of wrong decisions by our courts. Dred Scott, Native American re-locations, denial of votes to women, Japanese internment... the list goes on.
    typical of that camp. If it is a decision or law they agree with, then "it's the law". If they disagree, "it's not fair, the law needs to be changed"
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Before my kids were born it was made fairly evident that mother came first. She chose the maner of delivery (drugs or not, bathtub or not etc etc). She chose who was and wasn't in the room. Everything was about her. Even after the kids were born and we were still in the hospital everything was about the mother and baby. I was literally treated like a suspected pedophile. I could not even hold the baby unless my wife said it was ok to the nurse and had to get permission to sleep in a chair in the hospital room with my wife.
    Well I'm sorry the nurses made you feel unwelcomed. But why is it not okay that things about mother and baby? Mother's gone through hell for 9 months and such and such hours. Yes, attention should be on her. She's the one suffering and then in recovery.

    But even then: the treatment of a few people toward you doesn't mean everyone has that same experience. If someone was a jerk to you in particular it is your right to complain. (Did you file a complaint? They won't address individual staff issues if you don't voice your opinion when it matters).

    Some of this is a matter of the quality of hospital (like bedding concerns). After my experience at a low-rate hospital I did go out of my way to secure L&D in better conditions the next times. And thus, those better hospitals were generally more open to family and so forth.

    My husband's recollection of being there was different - he has pleasant memories and hardly felt negated during the process, even though all attention was on me.

    However, the OP is not in regard to married couples. If the OP was in regard to married couples I'd have a different opinion. I do believe married fathers have rights that unmarried fathers do not. Hence: being married. They're involved, responsible, and connected to it more. I guess things get blurred if they're married but legally separated for a while.

    But the topic in debate covers singles: divorcees and other people who might not even be involved at all beyond sex in the past.

    Surely: if she wants to have her ex or boyfriend there, she can.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 03-17-14 at 11:23 AM.
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