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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Short of "deadly communicable disease" or "he killed a dude", I doubt you could come up with a good enough reason.
    He could have been abusive to her......

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    Maybe he's a bitch and would stick around after that. I know a real man would wipe his hands clean of her.
    A real man wouldn't have gone to court to try to force his way into the delivery room.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabaholic View Post
    A real man wouldn't have gone to court to try to force his way into the delivery room.
    I agree. A REAL man would have respected her wishes and would be concentrate on having a relationship with the child after it's birth, instead of filing frivolous lawsuits.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabaholic View Post
    He could have been abusive to her......
    He could also simply be clingy, overbearing, and/or bossy, none of which she would need while trying to give birth.

    It makes me wonder how many would object to a woman kicking a man out of the room while she was giving birth if he started telling her she was breathing wrong or correcting her on posture or technique in relation to what they learned in a birthing class. What if he was constantly touching her when she was telling him she didn't feel like being touched right then. What if he was simply annoying, constantly wanting to talk about him even at a time like this? And would it not be better if she knew he was going to be like this or a chance that he would, to keep him out of the room altogether? Sure, his feelings might be hurt by this, but her comfort for the sake of the baby more important at this particular time than his feelings?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    He could also simply be clingy, overbearing, and/or bossy, none of which she would need while trying to give birth.

    It makes me wonder how many would object to a woman kicking a man out of the room while she was giving birth if he started telling her she was breathing wrong or correcting her on posture or technique in relation to what they learned in a birthing class. What if he was constantly touching her when she was telling him she didn't feel like being touched right then. What if he was simply annoying, constantly wanting to talk about him even at a time like this? And would it not be better if she knew he was going to be like this or a chance that he would, to keep him out of the room altogether? Sure, his feelings might be hurt by this, but her comfort for the sake of the baby more important at this particular time than his feelings?
    Great point. It might not be that she "dislikes" him, but that perhaps he has a personality type that would not be supportive to her in such a scenario and might even make matters worse and more stressful for her.

    Just think of all those movie scenes where the guy passes out, and the doctors and nurses have to go tend to his sorry arse.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Great point. It might not be that she "dislikes" him, but that perhaps he has a personality type that would not be supportive to her in such a scenario and might even make matters worse and more stressful for her.

    Just think of all those movie scenes where the guy passes out, and the doctors and nurses have to go tend to his sorry arse.
    There's an episode of Psych that kept coming to mind typing that where the overbearing head detective, Lassiter, is unwittingly there when the chief goes into labor and his bedside manner is appalling (although, she insisted that he stay with her til her husband got there). When he was told he should help coach her, he started being like an actual coach and giving some speech about "come on, you got push this baby out, now", along with other very sports coach like comments in his less-than-likable manner. Her face and the nurse was like "what the hell is wrong with you". I can just see some fathers being like that.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    Disagree.

    The child is just as much a part of him than it is her.

    It's absolutely a right.
    Nope - he's not birthing a baby. He's not in labor. He's not physically connected to that child. He's not putting his life or his soul on the line to bring a being in the world.

    Sorry guys: but nature has removed you from these events. I guess that just sucks but there it is.

    Being there is a privilege. My husband feels honored that our marriage was strong and I wanted him there. If guys give two bits of a **** then perhaps they'd make a relationship with the mother work. Perhaps they'd be supporting or caring. Whatever led to a fracturing of their relationship: maybe that's not how things should go.

    It's an over-dramatized concern that most men don't feel and don't share. And in the end it shows what he really feels about the mother of his baby: nothing.

    Besides: let's pretend it is a right. Then what? If Dad passes out can the nurses take him out of the room? (happens - believe me - it happens).
    If Dad is being verbally abusive to his wife during delivery then can he be kicked out? (Might sound absurd but I've HEARD of this happening, too).
    What if she's incapacitated by an allergic reaction and she can't communicate to others - and then he tries to speak for her even if he's not legally permitted and tries to circumvent things - then what?

    - These things would become serious issues *if it's declared a right* - And in the end: the mother has a right to invite people in. The doctors retain the right to KICK EVERYONE OUT if things go wrong.

    You cannot lose sight of what's going on: a woman is at her most vulnerable and most private and painful moment in her life to bring another being in the world.

    It's not a situation or time for dispute - the equivalent of a 'oh yeah! I'll show you!'
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrabaholic View Post
    At the time of delivery, child support has not started.

    Because she has the right to medical privacy.
    I have already discussed both of these points in this thread.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There's an episode of Psych that kept coming to mind typing that where the overbearing head detective, Lassiter, is unwittingly there when the chief goes into labor and his bedside manner is appalling (although, she insisted that he stay with her til her husband got there). When he was told he should help coach her, he started being like an actual coach and giving some speech about "come on, you got push this baby out, now", along with other very sports coach like comments in his less-than-likable manner. Her face and the nurse was like "what the hell is wrong with you". I can just see some fathers being like that.
    That has real comedic value.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Why on earth would the judge have used this as her test for this case?

    You may have that opinion but that opinion is based false premise that someone has the right to be present at birth. That right does not exist, not from the father, not from anyone.

    Laws are also there to protect the rights of people, the rights of the woman are clear and righteous, she has the right to a safe and carefree delivery with only the people she wants as a support beside her. This man has no relationship to this woman, and even if he did, that does not give him special rights that should usurp her right to privacy.

    There is no valid reason, legal or moral to force a mother in labor to be confronted with a selfish ex-partner or anyone else she does not want around her at child birth.

    I'll respond to this as this seems like the crux of your argument. One likes to believe that our rights are inalienable given to us by our creator, but lets face it, men wrote these rights and it is men and women who challenge them all the time. I don't mind your point of view, but to suggest that this is the correct ruling simply because a judge saw it that way is an appeal to authority and not a very experienced form of debate. I approached this debate from the unpopular point of view, taking the man's side. I certainly see what your argument is, and what that of the Mother's is, and it does have merit, however my main goal in reaching out to AGENTJ is to help him realize that he can't simply "Factually this and factually that" his way out of an engaging topic of discussion. He appeals to authority ALL THE DAMN TIME. I am a father of four and I was there for everyone of my children's births. The days of men sitting in the waiting room smoking cigars are over in case ya didn't know. Men are encouraged to be with their partners and modern women want them there.

    The deeper discussion point was when does a persons fundamental right trump another's? In this case both have a fundamental right to privacy. They both have a fundamental right to be a parent, free of interference from anyone less a clear and present material harm to the child. So, you're suggesting that he doesn't have a right to be a parent because you claim he is not necessarily the parent or would need to establish paternity. To my understanding this point was never contested by the mother, nor was there any allegations of abuse or anything remotely close to that. There are several intriguing legal questions here. One, simply having a right to privacy is not where it ends. We see that everyday, our privacy rights are stripped from us and sometimes we don't even know it. In order to bring a legal challenge to privacy rights one needs to demonstrate that insodoing a greater good is achieved. In the case at hand, the father would need to demonstrate that his right of parenting and being there at the birth of his child, outweighed her right to not have him there - her right to privacy. On its face as was demonstrated in this thread, people were quick to jump on this guy for bringing such a suit in the first place. I can see and I appreciate that point of view as I too share it. If my partner did not want me there I would not be there, and I would respect her wishes. But in this case the father had no relationship with the mother, only the unborn child. Some may try and assume what his motivations are/were, but we're simply not that good. I can envision several scenarios where his intentions were nothing but benign, but since we do not really know, I prefer to not speculate and take him at his word.

    So I thought this presented an interesting conundrum for the legal system. AGENTJ claims to support pro human rights, but isn't an unborn human child, human? He contradicts himself in his own tagline since he supports pro choice or the right of a mother to kill her unborn human child. No equal protection for the unborn human, no rights really at all. No rights of the father, only the rights of a mother whom is free to do what she wishes, even if that means killing a child that has no voice, and even if it does have the voice of a father, her rights trump all others. I find that unpalatable frankly, and it needs to change. Back to the subject, I wanted to know that in lacking any evidence of violence, abuse or anything that would otherwise cause this woman any detriment to her health, why would the court not use lack of these contextually significant extenuating circumstances to form an opinion consistent with any other legal precedence when adjudicating conflicting rights, or rights in general? Rights as I said earlier in this thread are predicated in the common law understanding that by not giving them a material harm would come to the person not receiving them. Common laws act in a similar manner, and the principles of justice perform the same function. So, my question which I thought was a legitimate question was, outside of any context showing material harm coming to mother, what harm was there for Dad being there to witness the birth of his child? I am not aware of the reasons and facts surrounding their breakup in the first place but I have known where the birth of a child experienced together can often mend relationship woes, even if only temporarily.

    Either way, I respect other's opinions on this, and I generally share them from a personal standpoint, but I think the questions deserved asking, and further to explore the philosophical implications on each party to the suit, including that of the unborn human who has zero rights and no voice.


    Tim-
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