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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yes, now you're getting it. See, at least you're recognizing the basic principles of debate. What you now need to do is actually provide a logically coherent argument as to why you think I'm wrong. It really not that complicated a concept.
    But this is not a point of discussion or subject to debating, this debate was done in a court of law and a judge just clearly decided that this is not even debatable according to the US laws. All the people who support the mother have to do is point at the arguments used by the judge and those are the only arguments who have any merit.

    And debate is fine and dandy, you can proclaim you opinion but this opinion is not based on reality but on some men's wishful thinking and nothing more. Because most people, especially the reasonable ones and not "activist male agitators" would agree that a woman in this situation has a very reasonable expectation of privacy and no person has the right to interfere with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    This judge's feelings impacted the rights of this man. Did you read the decision? It's an opinion of an interpretation of how SHE felt who's rights should prevail in this matter.
    No, this man has no rights. He is not married to her and even then he does not have the right to be present at childbirth. In the past men never were in the delivery room. Delivering a baby is not a spectator sport and if someone does not have a real and obvious reason for being there in that deliver room, medical staff or one or more people who are supporting the mother who is lying there is a whole heap of pain and effort, should go and wait in the hall and respect the privacy of sanctity of this woman giving birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Well, it might not, but it could add context to why this women for no other rational reason decided to exclude the father from the birthing process. Now if she did have a legitimate reason, perhaps you can enlighten me? Materiality matters in law, superficiality has no weight usually, and that was the basis of my providing a possible contextually significant argument for what ole Mom was really preventing Dad from being there.
    The legitimate reason? She does not want him there. That is the only legitimate reason she needs. She does not want this person there and that is that, parental rights are not automatic for men and even if they were, even automatically becoming a father gives this father no right to intrude on the woman's right to choose the people she wants/needs in the delivery room. A reasonable person would understand and respect the mother but the arrogant jerkoff cares more about himself than the health of the mother or the child. This kind of arrogance and selfishness disgusts me. Nobody has the legal or moral right to harass a mother in childbirth, not him, nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    No, an actual history of abuse or a clear and present danger are actually very good reasons to leave Dad out of the birthing process. Since I saw none, then what other possible reason would she not want him there?
    Reason one, he has no frigging business to be there if the mother does not want him there

    Reason two, his presence might lead to complications during the birth (stress can lead to longer labor and increased risks to both mother and child)

    Reason three, SHE DOES NOT WANT HIM THERE. Yes, this is the same reason as reason one but it is the only one that counts, she does not want him there so he has no right or business to be in the delivery room.

    And maybe she does not feel safe with him there. Not that I suppose this will be the case here but what if they are married and the baby comes out a different race as the father? That could lead to danger to both mother and child if it becomes clear that the woman has birthed the child of another man.

    Also, and I will keep saying this, the woman does not want him there and that is all the reason necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Ok, so there we go, so you think her privacy rights trump his equal protection rights to be a parent? Again, I thought you were for equal rights? How is that being for equal rights?
    Her privacy rights trump his rights as a parent because he does not have any rights as a parent before birth. Even after birth he has not automatic rights. And again, even if he did have those rights, that still does not give him the legal right to be present at the moment of birth. Equal rights do not mean anything in this situation. Him not being present is not violating his (at that moment non-existing parental rights), his being in the delivery room against her wishes is a violation of her right to privacy.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I know you're probably replying to my post, but let me ask you this.

    Laws are intended to prevent material harm to the innocent, correct? Rights are provided to prevent the government, or any other entity from harming you by abridging those rights, correct? With me? So, may I ask what material harm would come this women by having Dad in the room to witness his child being born? Answer me this, and convince me that I'm wrong? The judge apparently didn't use this as her test for this case, but she should have, in my opinion.


    Tim-
    Why on earth would the judge have used this as her test for this case?

    You may have that opinion but that opinion is based false premise that someone has the right to be present at birth. That right does not exist, not from the father, not from anyone.

    Laws are also there to protect the rights of people, the rights of the woman are clear and righteous, she has the right to a safe and carefree delivery with only the people she wants as a support beside her. This man has no relationship to this woman, and even if he did, that does not give him special rights that should usurp her right to privacy.

    There is no valid reason, legal or moral to force a mother in labor to be confronted with a selfish ex-partner or anyone else she does not want around her at child birth.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room - ABC News



    Thoughts?

    So the elements in question:
    1) Is being a witness to a birth essential to bond with said child?
    2) Is the birthing room a matter of the mother's personal privacy?

    Of course, this isn't a broad ruling that applies to everyone (every state, etc). Hospitals have their own rules and guidelines they follow - and so forth. States can rule to the contrary. If hospitals they want to change their guidelines they must make an effort to do so. Most err with the side of the mother (which is what led to this case).

    I support the ruling and the concept: Being a witness to a birth is not a right. It is a privilege that should be extended to fathers at the decision of the mother per her comfort.
    Disagree.

    The child is just as much a part of him than it is her.

    It's absolutely a right.
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And it would be pretty pointless for him to be in the delivery room for the birth if he wasn't actually seeing the birth itself since it isn't very likely that he is going to be a comfort to her (which is the real reason most men are mainly in the room for the birth of their children, to comfort the mother, not see the actual birth). And there is no way for him to witness the actual birth without looking at her privates. And he doesn't have a right to dictate exactly how long after the birth he gets to see the baby. So what if he has to wait an extra 5, 10, or even 20 minutes after the baby is born to actually see the baby? Who gets to decide which child gets to hold the baby first? Whose right is that? And how long does each parent get for those first bonding moments?
    obviously the mother has all the rights and the father just gets to STFU and write the check.......
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    obviously the mother has all the rights and the father just gets to STFU and write the check.......
    The mother gets all the rights during her delivery of the baby. After the baby is born, the father starts getting rights. But they are shared, and that is the problem. Most people aren't good at sharing.
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGirlNextDoor View Post
    Disagree.

    The child is just as much a part of him than it is her.

    It's absolutely a right.
    Disagree.

    The child is physically a part of her, as it is attached to and living off of her body. After the birth you would be correct, but not until then.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    obviously the mother has all the rights and the father just gets to STFU and write the check.......
    We are not talking about what happens after the parentage has been decided but purely about the moment of delivery.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The mother gets all the rights during her delivery of the baby. After the baby is born, the father starts getting rights. But they are shared, and that is the problem. Most people aren't good at sharing.
    the problem is that for decades there has been a prejudice in the courts against the father. the assumption has been that a woman is automatically a better parent than a man. the father has to prove beyond a doubt that he is a better parent. it was just assumed that the mother was. and, unfortunately, many of the old timers with that opinion are still sitting judges in many courts.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    the problem is that for decades there has been a prejudice in the courts against the father. the assumption has been that a woman is automatically a better parent than a man. the father has to prove beyond a doubt that he is a better parent. it was just assumed that the mother was. and, unfortunately, many of the old timers with that opinion are still sitting judges in many courts.
    I actually agree that there has been favoritism toward women/mothers when it comes to child custody in courts, and I would like to see that changed. But it is not going to happen overnight. It is changing. But in many cases, there really is no "better parent", and that is the problem with parents, children, and the parents not being together to raise them, deciding how much time and what time each parent gets with the child and how much money each must contribute. It is not a simple problem to fix.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    They are taking money from the father when they get child support. The money goes to the mother.
    At the time of delivery, child support has not started.



    You still have given no reason why the mother should be able to make a unilateral decision that the father cannot be there. You have made a declaration without giving a reason.
    Because she has the right to medical privacy.

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