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Thread: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room[W:829]

  1. #701
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.)
    2.) nope they simply do not. Also the father has no legal right to be in the room and see the birth against the womans will, ZERO.
    if you disagree simply tell us this right?

    Parental rights are fundamental rights, look it up skippy. Is he not a parent at the moment of birth?


    3.) because i factually am, real rights not the ones you make up

    Real rights means to you rights that you agree are worth supporting. Gotcha.


    4.) thats not a right so the answer is NO

    He has a protected legal right to be a parent free of interference from the government provided there is no MATERIAL harm to the child being done. I can't believe you're arguing this point, there are thousands of legal precedence for fundamental parental rights. This is a new one, granted, so that's why we're debating the rightness or wrongness of this legal decision. You agree this is a debate forum, right?


    5.) meaningless to rights, how many girls have you seen naked, does that give you the right to see them now too? lol thats retarded

    Well, I'm arguing that if I was in the4 same position as this father that I would and should have the right. See what I'm doing is taking a side and arguing with merit why I think I'm right. Now, you're supposed to do the same, but from the other point of view.


    6.) easy its her privacy and her medical situation
    Yes, that's what the judge said, and I articulated why I think that her decision was wrong. Why do you think it was correct, and specifically how does that apply to your stated goal of equal rights for everyone?


    7.) nope thats what YOU are saying
    Yes, now you're getting it. See, at least you're recognizing the basic principles of debate. What you now need to do is actually provide a logically coherent argument as to why you think I'm wrong. It really not that complicated a concept.


    8.) you are welcome to this OPINION but its meaningless, your feelings dont impact rights

    This judge's feelings impacted the rights of this man. Did you read the decision? It's an opinion of an interpretation of how SHE felt who's rights should prevail in this matter.



    9.) nothing to do with the topic

    Well, it might not, but it could add context to why this women for no other rational reason decided to exclude the father from the birthing process. Now if she did have a legitimate reason, perhaps you can enlighten me? Materiality matters in law, superficiality has no weight usually, and that was the basis of my providing a possible contextually significant argument for what ole Mom was really preventing Dad from being there.


    10.) meaningless to her rights
    No, an actual history of abuse or a clear and present danger are actually very good reasons to leave Dad out of the birthing process. Since I saw none, then what other possible reason would she not want him there?


    11.) its her right to her privacy and medical situation, sorry you dont like her having rights but she does

    Ok, so there we go, so you think her privacy rights trump his equal protection rights to be a parent? Again, I thought you were for equal rights? How is that being for equal rights?



    The issue is i stick to facts, reality and actual rights not opinions

    No, I think I am convinced now that you really don't have a very good grasp on how this all works on a debate forum? I've told you countless times this and it doesn't seem to register with you, so not sure why, but we don't have the facts sparky, and if we do, it is very, and I mean very rare that we do have them. But I argue that if we have the facts, why debate the subject at all. What we usually have is an interpretation of events that reflect the experiences we've gained over our lives, and our brains arrange this into a logical format for us to process the truth of any series of events. We tend to avoid going against the grain when our truth experiences over time, and have evolved our opinions to represent how we believe something should be or currently is.



    Tim-
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    I know you're probably replying to my post, but let me ask you this.

    Laws are intended to prevent material harm to the innocent, correct? Rights are provided to prevent the government, or any other entity from harming you by abridging those rights, correct? With me? So, may I ask what material harm would come this women by having Dad in the room to witness his child being born? Answer me this, and convince me that I'm wrong? The judge apparently didn't use this as her test for this case, but she should have, in my opinion.


    Tim-
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    1.)Parental rights are fundamental rights, look it up skippy. Is he not a parent at the moment of birth?
    2.) Real rights means to you rights that you agree are worth supporting. Gotcha.
    3.) He has a protected legal right to be a parent free of interference from the government provided there is no MATERIAL harm to the child being done. I can't believe you're arguing this point, there are thousands of legal precedence for fundamental parental rights. This is a new one, granted, so that's why we're debating the rightness or wrongness of this legal decision. You agree this is a debate forum, right?
    4.) Well, I'm arguing that if I was in the4 same position as this father that I would and should have the right.
    5.) See what I'm doing is taking a side and arguing with merit why I think I'm right.
    6.) Now, you're supposed to do the same, but from the other point of view.
    7.)Yes, that's what the judge said, and I articulated why I think that her decision was wrong.
    8.) Why do you think it was correct,
    9.) and specifically how does that apply to your stated goal of equal rights for everyone?
    10.) Yes, now you're getting it. See, at least you're recognizing the basic principles of debate.
    11.) What you now need to do is actually provide a logically coherent argument as to why you think I'm wrong. It really not that complicated a concept.
    12.) This judge's feelings impacted the rights of this man. Did you read the decision? It's an opinion of an interpretation of how SHE felt who's rights should prevail in this matter.
    13.)Well, it might not, but it could add context to why this women for no other rational reason decided to exclude the father from the birthing process. Now if she did have a legitimate reason, perhaps you can enlighten me? Materiality matters in law, superficiality has no weight usually, and that was the basis of my providing a possible contextually significant argument for what ole Mom was really preventing Dad from being there.
    14.)No, an actual history of abuse or a clear and present danger are actually very good reasons to leave Dad out of the birthing process. Since I saw none, then what other possible reason would she not want him there?
    15.)Ok, so there we go, so you think her privacy rights trump his equal protection rights to be a parent? Again, I thought you were for equal rights? How is that being for equal rights?
    16.) No, I think I am convinced now that you really don't have a very good grasp on how this all works on a debate forum? I've told you countless times this and it doesn't seem to register with you, so not sure why, but we don't have the facts sparky, and if we do, it is very, and I mean very rare that we do have them. But I argue that if we have the facts, why debate the subject at all. What we usually have is an interpretation of events that reflect the experiences we've gained over our lives, and our brains arrange this into a logical format for us to process the truth of any series of events. We tend to avoid going against the grain when our truth experiences over time, and have evolved our opinions to represent how we believe something should be or currently is.



    Tim-
    1.) his parental rights are fully 100% intact. Fail
    2.) false
    3.) see #1
    4.) your wants are meaningless to peoples rights
    5.) yes i see what you "think" but you are factually wrong. But thanks for sharing.
    6.) no im not "supposed" to do the same lol I simply understand her factual rights and i agree with them and he doesnt get to infringe on them.
    7.) your opinion is meaningless to the facts, his rights are 100% in tact he has no right to see her private parts or be in the room.
    8.) what i think doesnt matter to facts
    9.) he has the same rights has her its already equal
    10.) theres nothing to debate here, im going with facts and her rights, YOU want to tell me why you think her rights should be violated, i simply dont care lol
    11.) already done
    12.) nope, her rights were simply held up, while the man has none at stake
    13.) still all meaningless to her rights
    14.) nope whether he was a woman better or a saint is meaningless to her exercising her rights
    15.) nope wrong again his parental rights are 100% intact this doesnt impact them, another fail. they both have . . . .wait for it . . . wait for it . . .privacy rights and are already equal LMAO.
    16.) sorry that you think your opinion matters but somethings arent simply up for debate. I mean you can TRY but ill stick with the law and her rights and facts. You are free to tell me your feelings but again they dont impact her rights.

    good luck
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    I know you're probably replying to my post, but let me ask you this.

    Laws are intended to prevent material harm to the innocent, correct? Rights are provided to prevent the government, or any other entity from harming you by abridging those rights, correct? With me? So, may I ask what material harm would come this women by having Dad in the room to witness his child being born? Answer me this, and convince me that I'm wrong? The judge apparently didn't use this as her test for this case, but she should have, in my opinion.


    Tim-
    LOL i couldn't possible care less about convincing you, why would i ever?

    but theres an easy and factual answer for that whether your feelings agree or not doesnt matter

    him forcing himself in her medical situation, in her private matters and to see her privates (since you said witness the birth) would abridge her rights, while him not being in there and seeing her privates has ZERO impact to his rights.
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    LOL i couldn't possible care less about convincing you, why would i ever?

    but theres an easy and factual answer for that whether your feelings agree or not doesnt matter

    him forcing himself in her medical situation, in her private matters and to see her privates (since you said witness the birth) would abridge her rights, while him not being in there and seeing her privates has ZERO impact to his rights.

    Ah but you did not answer the question. What "harm" would come to her for allowing it? He's already seen her naked, and he already knows her most intimate vulnerabilities, so again I ask, what material harm would it have been to allow him in there? The fact that she was pregnant was no secret, the fact that she was giving birth was no secret, and father was partly responsible for the whole situation in the first place. Without him, she's not even there at all. So, the question really is; when does someone's rights begin and when do they end when conflicting? What should be the test legally?


    Tim-
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    1.) his parental rights are fully 100% intact. Fail
    2.) false
    3.) see #1
    4.) your wants are meaningless to peoples rights
    5.) yes i see what you "think" but you are factually wrong. But thanks for sharing.
    6.) no im not "supposed" to do the same lol I simply understand her factual rights and i agree with them and he doesnt get to infringe on them.
    7.) your opinion is meaningless to the facts, his rights are 100% in tact he has no right to see her private parts or be in the room.
    8.) what i think doesnt matter to facts
    9.) he has the same rights has her its already equal
    10.) theres nothing to debate here, im going with facts and her rights, YOU want to tell me why you think her rights should be violated, i simply dont care lol
    11.) already done
    12.) nope, her rights were simply held up, while the man has none at stake
    13.) still all meaningless to her rights
    14.) nope whether he was a woman better or a saint is meaningless to her exercising her rights
    15.) nope wrong again his parental rights are 100% intact this doesnt impact them, another fail. they both have . . . .wait for it . . . wait for it . . .privacy rights and are already equal LMAO.
    16.) sorry that you think your opinion matters but somethings arent simply up for debate. I mean you can TRY but ill stick with the law and her rights and facts. You are free to tell me your feelings but again they dont impact her rights.

    good luck

    Is the man a parent or is he not a parent at the precise moment of birth? You claim his rights are not being abridged, yet you agree he has a fundamental right to be a parent to his child, so is he a parent at birth or not?


    Tim-
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    “Socialism is great until you run out of someone elses money” Margaret Thatcher

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    1.)Ah but you did not answer the question. What "harm" would come to her for allowing it?
    2.) He's already seen her naked, and he already knows her most intimate vulnerabilities, so again I ask, what material harm would it have been to allow him in there?
    3.)The fact that she was pregnant was no secret
    4.) the fact that she was giving birth was no secret
    5.) and father was partly responsible for the whole situation in the first place. Without him, she's not even there at all.
    6.) So, the question really is; when does someone's rights begin and when do they end when conflicting? What should be the test legally?


    Tim-
    1.) your subjective opinion of harm doesn't matter to her rights, good grief lol
    but infringing on her rights is harm
    2.) I hope this isnt an argument because its a mentally retard one if it is. ill tell the next guy that rapes an ex to use this in court or one the one that peeks through an exs window, i mean he seen her before whats the big deal LMAO
    3.) good thing nobody ever said it was
    4.) see #3
    5.) also meaningless to her rights
    6.) correct that is the question, very good, you are learning!
    there is no conflict here, thats the point.

    him not be allowed to witness the birth doesn't violate or conflict with his rights at all, you answered your own question
    facts win again
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    1.)Is the man a parent or is he not a parent at the precise moment of birth?
    2.) You claim his rights are not being abridged
    3.) yet you agree he has a fundamental right to be a parent to his child
    4.) so is he a parent at birth or not?


    Tim-
    1.) is the man a parent or is he not a parent if he does not witness the birth?
    2.) no i dont claim that its just simply a fact
    3.) no i didnt claim that either i just said his parental rights are intact, which they are.
    4.) so is he a parent without seeing the birth or not?
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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Parental rights are fundamental rights, look it up skippy. Is he not a parent at the moment of birth?
    Yes he is, and that's why he has the right to visit the infant in the nursery.

    I'm a dad, and for all her faults there will always be a part of me that love my ex, because she is the mother of my children. Out of respect for that, if she didn't want me in the delivery room for whatever reason, I would be very disappointed but I would respect that. She is in medical need at that moment, I am not. I, the father, am a bystander. I'm honored that I was allowed to be present during the berth of my sons, but if she didn't want me there then she had every right to keep the birthing private.

    It would suck and I would not be happy about it at all, but I would respect her privacy, I would not hold it against her, and you bet your ass I would be there to hold my new-born son the very instant the staff allowed me.

    As a father, as a man, as a Conservative, I tell you that delivery is not the time or place for men to make a stand on father's rights. That is a time to honor and respect the mother of your child and give her all the privacy she requests. If she wants the mother-in-law that you hate there, and not you, be a man and graciously step aside and take your anger and disappointment to the grave.
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-16-14 at 03:36 AM.

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    Re: New Jersey Judge Blocks Dad From Delivery Room

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Parental rights are fundamental rights, look it up skippy. Is he not a parent at the moment of birth?
    But when a child is still in the womb how can one have parental rights over that child? In an ideal situation there may be a place for a father in the delivery room but it is not a parental right. Does he even have any parental rights until it has been legally established that he is the child's father? I am not sure that he has automatic parental rights in New Jersey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Real rights means to you rights that you agree are worth supporting. Gotcha.
    No, real rights are the kind of rights established in laws or by judicial decisions about what are and are not rights. The right of someone to be inside the delivery room does not exist. That has been decided by this decision and should have already been obvious to anyone except this jerk who wanted to violate this woman's right to privacy during the child birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    He has a protected legal right to be a parent free of interference from the government provided there is no MATERIAL harm to the child being done. I can't believe you're arguing this point, there are thousands of legal precedence for fundamental parental rights. This is a new one, granted, so that's why we're debating the rightness or wrongness of this legal decision. You agree this is a debate forum, right?
    I do not think parental rights are automatic, especially not for the father or else fathers would not have to prosecute against the mother if she decides to put him up for adoption. Especially if they are unwed like in this situation there is no automatic parental rights for fathers, also because paternity has not been decided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Well, I'm arguing that if I was in the same position as this father that I would and should have the right. See what I'm doing is taking a side and arguing with merit why I think I'm right. Now, you're supposed to do the same, but from the other point of view.
    Then that would make you disrespecting the only person who has the right to decide who is in the delivery room, aka the mother. Nobody has the right to encroach on the right of that woman to have the best delivery conditions possible for her giving birth to her child. And if that means not having an ex-boyfriend in the room who may or may not be the father, then so be it. This woman has the right to expect privacy in the hospital room she is inhabiting, nobody who has no business to be there should go and get lost if that woman so chooses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicup View Post
    Yes, that's what the judge said, and I articulated why I think that her decision was wrong. Why do you think it was correct, and specifically how does that apply to your stated goal of equal rights for everyone?
    Him being there against her wishes would be an invasion of privacy.

    For example she could argue intrusion of solitude, something that his invasion into her delivery room would most certainly be.

    It is her body, it is her child and it is her choice as to who is allowed in, there is no "right to be present at the moment of birth" for anyone except the mother, medical staff and person or persons that the mother needs/wants in there for her moral support.

    And if some father does not like it, then who cares, he is not the one having to push out a baby out of a space not normally meant/big enough for it. And that mother needs no distractions from some jerkwater possible father who she does not want to see in her life and especially not in her delivery room.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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