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Thread: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours[W:92]

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    One POSSIBLE scenario would be that it lost transponder, the pilot/pilots changed course, set autopilot, and then everyone lost consciousness for some reason.
    A mass loss of consciousness would be caused by depressurization, but at altitude this happens rapidly. If they had some problem that caused them to lose transponders and then depressurize, it was a really bad freaking day.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by PW4000 View Post
    The point of entry into this disappearance comes well before the FMS/FMC and more than likely has its source rooted in the SATCOM Datalink to ACARS, used by a source expressly for the purpose manipulating Flight 307. Nobody slipped their hand onto the flight deck mid-flight without the crew noticing it. Geepers.
    I love how you indicate something that has never once happened in history is "more than likely," particularly when it would involve major reprogramming of several systems and then finding a way to remotely incapacitate the pilots. All done before the flight departed.

    In what universe is that situation "more than likely?"

    edit: and when I say "reprogramming," I don't mean punching buttons on the console. I mean literally programming new software with completely new functions that no airliner has ever been built to handle.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    A mass loss of consciousness would be caused by depressurization, but at altitude this happens rapidly. If they had some problem that caused them to lose transponders and then depressurize, it was a really bad freaking day.
    Can an autopilot be pre-programmed to change course? That's possible, I think.

    They could have programmed in the course change and only afterwards lost transponder and/or consciousness.

    Damn speculation, I want more FACTS.
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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    True, someone could have input a new course in at any time, and once set to follow the course the autopilot would do that. But that's not something a pilot would miss.
    Maybe they did it.
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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Can an autopilot be pre-programmed to change course? That's possible, I think.

    They could have programmed in the course change and only afterwards lost transponder and/or consciousness.

    Damn speculation, I want more FACTS.
    It can, but, again, the pilots would be aware of the course change. You have to punch it into the FMS, so it's not like you can sneak in during the flight and do that. So you'd have to do it before they even get into the cockpit, and that's not something they're going to miss before takeoff. It would be like getting into your car and not noticing that somebody set the GPS to take you to California.

    The people in the cockpit knew where the plane was going to go. Whether that was the pilots or some hijacker, we can't say at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Maybe they did it.
    You'd have to be on board to program the new course, and I'm not sure why you'd pre-program a course knowing you'd be unconscious. Why not, you know, not go unconscious? And if you're going to remain conscious, why bother with the pre-programming?

    It's something a person can do, but I don't really see a scenario in which it makes sense.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    I love how you indicate something that has never once happened in history is "more than likely," particularly when it would involve major reprogramming of several systems and then finding a way to remotely incapacitate the pilots. All done before the flight departed.

    In what universe is that situation "more than likely?"

    edit: and when I say "reprogramming," I don't mean punching buttons on the console. I mean literally programming new software with completely new functions that no airliner has ever been built to handle.
    One more time. The code you are sheepishly referring to is called Ada. Ada is used primarily in avionics programming, especially where real-time fault tolerant and redundant embedded systems run and where high availability and failover is required. Airlines have their LRUs recoded all the time. Your assumption that such re-coding never takes place or is too difficult to accomplish is just hogwash - this is what they are designed to do, for crying out loud. We are talking about custom coding and modifications - that's it.

    Loading a new LRU module:


    Lastly, this notion that aircraft cannot be remotely controlled is likewise, hogwash:

    NASA



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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It can, but, again, the pilots would be aware of the course change. You have to punch it into the FMS, so it's not like you can sneak in during the flight and do that.
    Not if the AP receives its instructions from the FMS/FMC which receives its instructions from a modified link to the SATCOM ACARS MU. That's the point you seem to want to ignore, even when NASA and Honeywell tells you its possible (if you had bothered to read the links provide).

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    So you'd have to do it before they even get into the cockpit, and that's not something they're going to miss before takeoff. It would be like getting into your car and not noticing that somebody set the GPS to take you to California.
    That's nuts and complete misunderstanding of the potential in the SATCOM ACARS Avionics System. Why do you think they call it ACARS Avionics? Why would those two terms be linked together by SAS, if that's not how their aircraft are being operated?

    Having just a little knowledge can be dangerous, especially when you refuse to accept reality. Reality dictates that the aircraft's FMS can be controlled through the ACARS MU. That's a fact. It may be a fact that you are not comfortable with, but a fact nonetheless. NASA, Honeywell and our Military already know this as a fact. You should get caught up on the technology before claiming something is not possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The people in the cockpit knew where the plane was going to go. Whether that was the pilots or some hijacker, we can't say at this point.
    They would have known right up until the point where they could do nothing to prevent it. ACARS can integrate with more than the Avionics suite as I've mentioned earlier. So, if the aircraft had been set-up to release a toxic agent into the main cabin and flight deck through the recirculation system, that could have also been triggered through SATCOM ACARS.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    It's something a person can do, but I don't really see a scenario in which it makes sense.
    Of course, you don't because you cannot fathom a pre-staged Remote Controlled Skyjacking of Flight 370. You make it a lot more difficult than it has to be. It really does not have to be as hard as you are trying to make it. First the gas, then the FMS - in that order.

    Recall, Betty Ong, on-board Flight 11:



    Within the first 11 seconds she says that "we can't breathe." Before that she says that she does not know if they are being "maced."

    Do you understand what this means? That's gas my dear friend. The question is, what kind of gas was it and WHERE did it come from. No skyjacker on 911 was ever accused of getting both box cutters and mace on-board commercial aircraft in the United States of America. Getting everybody involved on-board with box cutters was a mathematical improbability at best. Getting everybody involved on-board with box cutters AND some of them with mace, is pure Fantasy Island nonsense at best.

    Now, you tell me what Betty, is talking about and why are people having difficulty breathing. This aircraft had not suffered any rapid decompression from a high altitude. There are absolutely zero reasons for these people to not be able to breathe, unless a toxic agent was released inside that cabin and/or cockpit.

    And, it all makes perfectly good sense, if you are planning to remotely take-over the flight controls of the aircraft. Why? First, you knock out the flight crew on the flight deck with gas. Their cockpit door is CLOSED and SEALED, which means that the gas would slowly leak into the main cabin secondarily. This is why Betty, was talking about the passengers closer to the first class and business class sections - as being those having difficulty breathing. Those sections are physically closer than coach class, which is where Betty, initiated her phone call - she was near the rear of the aircraft.

    That gas slowly made its way into the cabin. Who knows what amount leaked in - maybe not enough to knock out people sitting in Business and First Class, but certain enough to cause them to have difficulty breathing as Betty testifies on record.

    Why did the media never pick up this anomaly? It is things just like this that causes hairs on the back of my neck to stand up and take notice. Not being able to breathe has NOTHING to do with a skyjacking. Why? Because the skyjackers WOULD NOT expose themselves to such gases, knowing full well that they had to fly the aircraft. It would make no sense at all for them to gas themselves.

    Betty, gave us all some very valuable information, but how many people have just completely ignored what she said over the years.

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by PW4000 View Post
    One more time. The code you are sheepishly referring to is called Ada. Ada is used primarily in avionics programming, especially where real-time fault tolerant and redundant embedded systems run and where high availability and failover is required. Airlines have their LRUs recoded all the time. Your assumption that such re-coding never takes place or is too difficult to accomplish is just hogwash - this is what they are designed to do, for crying out loud. We are talking about custom coding and modifications - that's it.

    Okay, now you are exposing yourself. ADA is a programming language, a 3rd generation language that was adopted by the airforce in the early 70s. The language itself does not speak to the complexity of programming specific actions, or activities. The complexity exists, regardless of the language used. There is nothing special about ADA, except that if you want to do something different or fix something with a system written in ADA, you need a programmer with ADA expertise. Similarly in old business systems you need someone with COBOL expertise.

    This is very complex stuff. We are talking about
    custom coding and modifications to custom coding for crying out loud
    . You want simple, use off the shelf. You want complex, use custom coding that was coded, and modified, by multiple programmers, over a period of years.

    Sorry to deflate your balloon, but your ignorance is glaring. What makes it worse is that you try to tout your ignorance like it is knowledge. You should be embarrassed
    Last edited by rjay; 03-15-14 at 04:10 AM.
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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Focus on what Betty, told you and then ask yourself, what on earth does not being able to breathe have to do with being skyjacked by terrorists? Those two things don't add up. Was Betty lying? Was Betty mistaken? Was Betty confused? Are you going to say that Betty was under stress and made it all up out of whole cloth? Why make up something about people not being able to breathe?

    This tells you that something was introduced into that cabin and the location of the most intense breathing problems came from near the flight deck. If you want remote control of the aircraft, then you are going to have to take out the flight crew somehow and the best way to do that is to release an agent that takes affect before they can put on their masks, or make sure that what's delivered through their masks is precisely what you want them to breath.

    Insidious? Yes - but how insidious is it to fly a perfectly fine aircraft into a building with people it, merely to go to war in a country where you gain control over oil assets.

    Betty, says they could not breathe. I believe her. Do you?

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    Re: U.S. Investigators Suspect Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours

    Quote Originally Posted by rjay View Post
    Okay, now you are exposing yourself.
    You seem to think that nonsequitur replies equates to actually debating on the merits. Nowhere in your post did you claim that Ada is not the language used to build the vast majority of the Boeing 777 programmable LRUs. I told you people that. You did not tell me that.

    The Boeing 777 Flies on 99.9% Ada.

    Now, I will take your apology anytime you desire to give it. You happen to be dialoguing with probably the only member of this board with actual flight experience in commercial aircraft like those being discussed here this evening. I do not post with declarative specificity on subjects I have no hands-on experience with. When I told you that Ada is the programming language used in the avionics of commercial aircraft like the Boeing 777, I meant exactly what I said.

    Now, what exactly are you exposing? The fact that I actually know what I'm writing about, or the fact that you had no idea who you were dialoguing with?

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