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Thread: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    I understand your rage, but there's no proof.

    The proof we DO have is what Russia IS doing.

    You can support that if you wish, I prefer to support free people to make their own choices, without the threat of military force against them.
    They're voting in Crimea. They're not voting in Kiev. Proof.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I see your alleged point, so explain why the Crimeans seem real pleased by their regime continuity under Russian auspices. No 100 dead protestors and policemen, no firebombs, no Victoria Nuland passing out rolls to alleged protestors.. No phone calls stating who will be in charge. Straight up and to the point loyalty to Russia, or not, as this election will demonstrate. Hot dam, but it sounds like democracy.
    Then the Russians must be perfectly fine with international observers monitoring the legitimacy of the referendum.
    Ukraine sounds like usurpers.
    Actually, they're trying to keep their territorial integrity. Territorial integrity's why one part of a country can't unilaterally secede from the rest of the country, regardless of the level of support for secession within that area.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Let's see. There are armed Russian military personnel controlling every government facility, public facility, news outlet, all utility and infrastructure, and in control of every public transportation mode within the Crimea as well as has entrenched military defensive positions along the border such as barbed wire, anti-personnel mines, maned checkpoints, artillery and armor... pointed at Ukraine and the civilians of Crimea. Oh, and now they've moved across the Crimean border in Ukraine proper and are continually moving more and more troops, armor and equipment across the border into Crimea and Ukraine proper.


    How in the world of common sense is this not an invasion, occupation and military intervention by one country into another sovereign country?
    How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000(?) troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

    Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

    Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

    Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv
    Last edited by Moot; 03-16-14 at 12:22 AM.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement.
    Do you really think that the agreement allows Russia to occupy Crimea without Ukraine's consent and evict Ukrainian forces from their bases?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Then the Russians must be perfectly fine with international observers monitoring the legitimacy of the referendum.


    Actually, they're trying to keep their territorial integrity. Territorial integrity's why one part of a country can't unilaterally secede from the rest of the country, regardless of the level of support for secession within that area.
    What good is territorial integrity if you don't have political and legislative integrity. Politicians sold to teh highest bidder, just like in the good ol' USA, eh?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?
    That's not relevant. It's still an invasion if the territory seized is of the same ethnic group as the occupying nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000 troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

    Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

    Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

    Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv
    As I said to someone else earlier...

    If the US moved our troops out of our bases in Britain, Germany and Japan, blew the doors down on their Parliaments, installed our guy in as the new leader, called for a vote for them to join the US while having armed US military at each polling station, took complete control of their press, their utilities and infrastructure, blocked their navies from being able to move, controlled all traffic in and out of their countries, prohibited any demonstrations against our actions and imprisoned anyone that tried, brought additional troops, armor and weapons into Britain, Germany and Japan to ensure we could annex them into the US, and any of the other militaristic actions that Russia has taken in Ukraine, would you feel that was an invasion by the US?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    Do you really think that the agreement allows Russia to occupy Crimea without Ukraine's consent and evict Ukrainian forces from their bases?
    I believe the Russians are signatory to the same treaty that the USA is to protect Ukrainians and they're doing allot better job than we are. Lots of dead in Kiev. Our boy, Yats is in charge there. Legerdemain or clairvoyance and the mystical neocon Victoria Nuland just happened to annoit him as Yanukovych's successor a few weeks before the actual coronation. What a coinky-dink, eh? Clairvoyance or she hires a really good soothsayer or it was part of the plan. What plan, you say. Why, the spontaneous revolution for regime change says I. Whoa, stop rigth there. You can't plan spontaneity. Don't tell Victoria, but she's paid six figures to plan, not guess, eh?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    How could Russia invade Crimea if it already had a large naval base and 160,000(?) troops located there 'before' the protests or overthrow of Ukraine government? Not to mention the majority of the population in Crimea is pro-Russian ethnic and have overwhelmingly voted to side with Russia. What invasion?

    Last Thursday, 120 Russian troops moved in to protect a Ukraine gas terminal located near the Crimean border from terrorists. Other than that I haven't read or heard of any Russian invasion of Ukraine mainland. A lot of talk and posturing, but no real invasion.

    Russia put troops along it's shared border with eastern ukraine to keep the bulk of Ukraines military located in that region instead of Crimea. There isn't going to be any invasion of Ukraine.....unless perhaps the 'right sector' provokes it.....

    Ukranian News - 2 Killed, 5 Injured In Shooting In Central Kharkiv
    What?

    Russia already invaded Ukraine, militarily defeated and is occupying the Ukraine region of Crimea. Under the gun of the Russian military the parliament for the Crimea district of Ukraine acknowledged they were unless Russian military control in their vote. Calling that vote democracy is absurd.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    That's not relevant. It's still an invasion if the territory seized is of the same ethnic group as the occupying nation.
    Maybe we should allow Mexico to occupy and annex southern California, southern Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and a few neighborhoods near me???

    I just don't understand their thought process here.

    Maybe we should annex some of the Japanese islands that have a majority American population since we have military bases there. I seriously doubt the Japanese would agree.

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