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Thread: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    I see your alleged point, so explain why the Crimeans seem real pleased by their regime continuity under Russian auspices. No 100 dead protestors and policemen, no firebombs, no Victoria Nuland passing out rolls to alleged protestors.. No phone calls stating who will be in charge. Straight up and to the point loyalty to Russia, or not, as this election will demonstrate. Hot dam, but it sounds like democracy. Ukraine sounds like usurpers.
    There's a lot of assumptions in the above. What we do know for a fact, is that Russia invaded the Crimea and placed their own people in charge. Additionally, anyone that has shown public support for Ukraine in Crimea, since the Russian invasion, has been arrested; some were beaten in public before being arrested, including the very old and very young.

    If this is supposed to be the choice of the Crimean population, why do we think that any "vote" will be legitimate with Russian guns at the polling places?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    There's a lot of assumptions in the above.
    It's one of Dave's preferred methods.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    There's a lot of assumptions in the above. What we do know for a fact, is that Russia invaded the Crimea and placed their own people in charge. Additionally, anyone that has shown public support for Ukraine in Crimea, since the Russian invasion, has been arrested; some were beaten in public before being arrested, including the very old and very young.

    If this is supposed to be the choice of the Crimean population, why do we think that any "vote" will be legitimate with Russian guns at the polling places?
    No invasion. There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement. The soldiers are not wearing patches, so they must be Academi, by the same logic you use to state they are Russians. Looks a lot like democracy. Not so much in Kiev and Greater Ukraine.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    A lot of the US' oil runs through pipelines that traverse Canada. Should we invade Canada is we don't like the way their government is run or if they have civil unrest?
    Who said Russia invaded?

    Mexico would've been a better analogy since US has invaded it in the past and took/stole a lot of their territory.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    No invasion. There were 26,000 Russian soldiers in Crimea as allowed in their bilateral agreement. The soldiers are not wearing patches, so they must be Academi, by the same logic you use to state they are Russians. Looks a lot like democracy. Not so much in Kiev and Greater Ukraine.
    I see your position:

    Okay. To use that form of logic, would the British, or Germans or Japanese feel we had invaded if we took our troops from our bases, blasted the doors down to their parliament, put our guys in charge and then called for a vote with the polling places staffed by armed US military?

    Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy.

    What happened in Ukraine is very similar to how the US came to be. That was more a vision of Democratic revolution than what the Russians are doing in Crimea.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    I see your position:

    Okay. To use that form of logic, would the British, or Germans or Japanese feel we had invaded if we took our troops from our bases, blasted the doors down to their parliament, put our guys in charge and then called for a vote with the polling places staffed by armed US military?

    Democracy at the point of a gun is not Democracy.

    What happened in Ukraine is very similar to how the US came to be. That was more a vision of Democratic revolution than what the Russians are doing in Crimea.
    Putin is defending Russian neighbors, relatives, friends, and emigres and doing a fine job of it, especially compared to the chaos, firebombing and deaths in Kiev. Probably caused by the bozone layer. No matter how you slice it, Putin is the one standing on high moral ground. the others suffer from bozone induced osteopornosis, same as many posters on this board.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Who said Russia invaded?

    Mexico would've been a better analogy since US has invaded it in the past and took/stole a lot of their territory.
    Let's see. There are armed Russian military personnel controlling every government facility, public facility, news outlet, all utility and infrastructure, and in control of every public transportation mode within the Crimea as well as has entrenched military defensive positions along the border such as barbed wire, anti-personnel mines, maned checkpoints, artillery and armor... pointed at Ukraine and the civilians of Crimea. Oh, and now they've moved across the Crimean border in Ukraine proper and are continually moving more and more troops, armor and equipment across the border into Crimea and Ukraine proper.

    How in the world of common sense is this not an invasion, occupation and military intervention by one country into another sovereign country?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Putin is defending Russian neighbors, relatives, friends, and emigres and doing a fine job of it, especially compared to the chaos, firebombing and deaths in Kiev. Probably caused by the bozone layer. No matter how you slice it, Putin is the one standing on high moral ground. the others suffer from bozone induced osteopornosis, same as many posters on this board.
    High moral ground? You must be kidding?

    Putin defending neighbors, relatives and friends? Yup, that's all a country needs to invade another.

    Too bad that nothing actually happened in Crimea to require such protection.

    So, if I don't like it if my neighbors get into a fight, I can go over, take control of their property and keep them at gun point until they sign over their property to me, since I'd just be protecting my other neighbors, my relatives and my family? I would have the moral high ground wouldn't I?

    Seriously?

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    High moral ground? You must be kidding?

    Putin defending neighbors, relatives and friends? Yup, that's all a country needs to invade another.

    Too bad that nothing actually happened in Crimea to require such protection.

    So, if I don't like it if my neighbors get into a fight, I can go over, take control of their property and keep them at gun point until they sign over their property to me, since I'd just be protecting my other neighbors, my relatives and my family? I would have the moral high ground wouldn't I?

    Seriously?
    No, you should hire Academi (Blackwater) to rough them up and then firebomb them and them snipe a few of them. Nobobdy will know it is Academi because they will not be wearing patches, insignia, etc. and you can blame it on Russians. Then you oughta be able to buy their property cheap.

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    Re: Crimea parliament declares independence from Ukraine ahead of referendum

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    No, you should hire Academi (Blackwater) to rough them up and then firebomb them and them snipe a few of them. Nobobdy will know it is Academi because they will not be wearing patches, insignia, etc. and you can blame it on Russians. Then you oughta be able to buy their property cheap.
    I understand your rage, but there's no proof.

    The proof we DO have is what Russia IS doing.

    You can support that if you wish, I prefer to support free people to make their own choices, without the threat of military force against them.

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